Author Topic: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms  (Read 43116 times)

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Offline Infanteer

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Re: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2005, 23:19:18 »
Actually, the C4I Battalion (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, and Intelligence) is essentially the Brigade Group Command and Control Structure.  Looking at its breakdown, it is something similar to the HQ of 3 Commando Brigade C2 structure.

I didn't want to get too much into this, leaving this thread for the focus on Battalion level organization, but here is MacGregor's layout for the C4I Battalion and his interesting new take on Staff Arrangements for the Brigade Group level:

"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline ArmyRick

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Re: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2005, 21:00:21 »
My own idea (an extention on previous existing ideas coming from my grape) is too combine infantry and armour into one trade/branch. Engineers and artillery I think should stay as their own..

The new Maneuover Battalions/Regts will consist of
-HQ Company/Squadron
-4 x Maneuover Companies/SQN
-Service Support Company/SQN

The HQ Coy would consist of Battalion HQ, ISTAR co-ord cell, sigs platoon, int sect, MP sect, UAV detachment (From arty?) and Reconnaissance Platoon (SF trained maybe?).

The 4 x maneuover sub units would consist of
-HQ Platoon (OC, 2IC, CSM LAVIII include 1-2 sniper detachments and a coy weapons detachment)
-120mm mortar platoon (LAVIII for Fire Control, a CP and 2 x 120mm mortars mounted on LAV Chasis either the AC delco turret or similar to US Stryker MC)
-Direct Fire Support Platoon (4 x MGS)
-2 x Assault Platoons (Rifle platoons) each one mounted in 4 x LAV III and consisting of 2 x 8 man rifle sections, a weapons section with 2 x GPMG and the ALAWS and a 4 man HQ (LT, WO, 2 x Signalers)

My math puts these Maneouver call signs at 130-140 personnel

The service support company would consist of 3 x A Echelon support platoons, RQMS, Maintenance platoon, UMS, BOR and its own COY HQ.

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Offline Mountie

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Re: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2005, 04:11:50 »
I completely agree with permanently organized combined arms battle groups.  I have read and discussed this on previous topics.  My question is how do you go about this while at the same time preserve the regimental system?  The regimental system is a part of our national and military history and I would hate to see it done away with.  While I agree that it doesn't necessarily affect operations, it has been the foundation of the army forever. 

I'm curious if anyone has an idea on how to achieve permanent combine arms battle groups without losing the regimental system.  The only thing I could think of was mini-brigade group styled battle groups.  Example, 1 CMBG has 1,2 & 3 Combined Arms Battle Groups (CABG), 2 CMBG has 4,5 & 6 CABGs and 5 CMBG has 7,8 & 9 CABGs.  In this manner 1 CABG would have a HQ, '1' CSS Company, 'A', 'B' & 'C' Companies PPCLI, 'A' Squadron LdSH, 'A' Battery RCHA & '11' Field Engineer Squadron.  Then 2 CABG would have a HQ, '2' CSS Company, 'D', 'E' & 'F' Companies, PPCLI, 'B' Squadron LdSH, 'B' Battery RCHA & '12' Field Engineer Squadron, and so forth.  The actual battalions within the infantry regiments would no longer exist.  The regiment would consist of independent companies attached to one of the three Combined Arms Battle Groups.  The HQ's of the armoured, artillery and engineer regiments would also disappear.  The HQ of the CABG would exist like a brigade HQ, with personnel drawn from the armoured or infantry regiments.  The brigade headquarters would remain the same, except for the artillery's FSCC and ASCC would be permanently assigned to the brigade HQ as in a US Army brigade, as would the engineer's ESCC.

Combined Arms Battle Group:
- CABG Headquarters
   - Command Section
   - TAC CP (2 x LAV-III TCV)
   - Ops/Intel Sections (2 x LAV-III CPV)
   - Signal Platoon (2 x LAV-III TCV)
- Infantry Recce Platoon (8 x LUVW LIV)
- Combat Service Support Company
   - Coy HQ
   - Administration Section (Personnel & Finance)
   - Logistics Platoon (stores, general transport, fuel transport & food service sections)
   - Maintenance Platoon
   - Medical Platoon (HQ, UMS & 5 evacuation teams with LAV-III Ambulances)
   - Regimental Police Section (8 RPs in 4 x LUVW MPs)
- 3 Medium Rifle Companies
   - Coy HQ (2 x LAV-III TCV)
   - Sniper Team (3 snipers)
   - Light Mortar Section (1 x LAV-III MICV & 3 x 60mm mortars)
   - 3 x Infantry Platoons (4 x LAV-III MICVs) (sections organized with 9 dismounts, Sgt and two 4-man fire teams each led by a MCpl)
- Direct Fire Support Squadron
   - Sqd HQ (3 x LAV-III DFSV TCV-version)
   - 3 x DFS Troop (2 x LAV-III DFSV with TOW & 4 LAV-III MGS)
- Indirect Fire Support Battery
   - Bty HQ (including the Battle Group FSCC in a LAV-III TCV)
   - 3 x Fire Effects Detachment (1 x LAV-III Fire Effects Vehicle)
   - Mortar Troop (4 x LAV-III 120mm Armoured Mortar System & 1 x LAV-III TCV)
   - Artillery Troop (4 x LAV-III 105mm Self-Propelled Howitzer & 1 x LAV-III TCV)
   - Air Defence Section (6 x LUVW-based Starstreak or Stinger air defence vehicles)
- Field Engineer Squadron
   - Sqd HQ (2 x LAV-III TCV)
   - 2 x Assault Engineer Troop
      - Troop HQ (3 x Fennek Armoured Cars & 1 x MLVW)
      - 3 x Engineer Section (LAV-III Pioneer)         
   - Close Support Troop (4 x MPEV, 2 x Medium Loaders, 2 x Medium Dozers, 1 x Road Grader, 2 x Dump Trucks & 1 x ROWPU)

Under brigade control there would then be:
- Command Support Regiment (Brigade HQ, signal squadron, military intelligence company, military police platoon & CSS company)
- Brigade Reconnaissance Squadron (27 Fennek Armoured Cars in a SHQ of 3 and three troops of 8)
- Brigade Service Battalion
   - Logistics Company (supply & transport)
   - Maintenance Workshop Company (Role 2 and limited Role 3 maintenance support)
   - Service Support Company (laundry & bath, NBC decontamination, finance and postal platoons & battalion food service section)
- Field Ambulance (HQ, service platoon, 2 medical support platoons with Advanced Surgical Centres & 2 evacuation platoons)
- Tactical Helicopter Squadron of 26 Griffons (12 lightly armed reconnaissance, 12 utility/medical evacuation & 2 command & control- all upgraded to USMC UH-1Y Twin Huey standards.
***Vehicle notes:
LAV-III Medium Infantry Combat Vehicle is a Canadianized Stryker with a Protected Weapons Station.
LAV-III Tactical Command Vehicle is the command version of MICV
LAV-III Command Post Vehicle has a raised roof and bigger troop compartment.  Same as the M577 is to the M113 (
LAV-III DFSV is the present LAV-III with a 25mm turret with a TOW missile launcher on either side of the turret (  see Piranha)
LUVW Light Infantry Vehicle is a soft-top recce variant of the G-Wagon LUVW (see Mud Recce Vehicle topic on this site)

Offline MCG

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Re: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2005, 04:42:59 »
I've argued before that the permanent dismemberment of the CERs is not a sustainable force structure:,22585.msg121434.html#msg121434
(I'll also point out that your "close support troop" is not.  It is just a "support troop.")

I completely agree with permanently organized combined arms battle groups. I have read and discussed this on previous topics. My question is how do you go about this while at the same time preserve the regimental system? 
I think this was answered in several threads that propose altering the regimental system to include both manouevre arms in any regimental family.,24461.0.html

Offline Mountie

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Re: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2005, 09:45:35 »

I actually remembered your point as soon as I had posted, but it was too late to change it.  You have corrected me so many times on the CER issue it actually stuck with me.  I would use three field engineer squadrons each with two field/assault engineer troops and a light support troop and one engineer support squadron.

Offline Brad Sallows

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Re: The Downward Diffusion of Combined Arms
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2005, 17:03:14 »
My thoughts so far: we already know how to detach combat and administrative capability and function downward.  Nothing I have read yet convinces me the benefits of lending more formality and rigidity to what we can already do informally and flexibly outweighs the disadvantages of also having to push administrative capability downward and potentially introduce redundant layers of HQ for the sake of forming nice gaggles.

Common manoeuvre arms MOC(s) can be developed independently of any formal shifts in combined arms organization.

Is not the ATOC aimed at captains?  Does that not pre-empt the concern that manoeuvre arms sub-unit OCs won't know enough about combined arms?
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Offline Mountie

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Combined Arms Battalion
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2005, 01:20:08 »
Combined Arms Battalions could be easily formed by going back to the old infantry battalion structure and simply adding a few LAV-III MGSs to the battalion.

Combined Arms Battalion
Battalion Headquarters/Command Platoon
Headquarters Company
- Orderly Room
- Signal Platoon
- Supply Platoon
- Transport Platoon
- Maintenance Platoon
Combat Support Company
- Recce Platoon (8 x LUVW C&R or German Light Infantry Vehicle version of the G-Wagon)
- Mortar Platoon (6 x 81mm mortars in LAV-III Mortar Fire Support Vehicles)
- Anti-Armour Platoon (6 x LAV-III TUA)
- Direct Fire Support Platoon (6 x LAV-III MGS)
- Pioneer Platoon (4 x LAV-III Pioneer)
3 x Rifle Company
- 3 x Infantry Platoon (4 x LAV-III Stryker with PWS in place of 25mm turret)
- Sniper Team

The Combined Arms Battalion has its own indirect fire support (81mm mortars), mobility/counter mobility support (pioneers), anti-armour and direct fire support assets (TUA & MGS) and close reconnaissance support (recce platoon) without seriously reorganizing the battalion and without introducing new doctrine, organizations or equipment (other than the MGSs).  The only conflict would be removing the MGSs from the Armoured Corps and giving them to the infantry.  A battery of 4 Denel 105mm LAV-III SPHs and a reconnaissance and surveillance squadron with Fennek armoured cars could be added, along with elements of the service battalion and field ambulance to form a very capable battalion group capable of peacemaking and peacekeeping operations in light and medium operations.

The US Army's Future Combat System Unit of Action/Brigade Combat Team is slated to consist of three combined arms battalions, a reconnaissance and surveillance regiment (US squadron), an artillery regiment (US battalion), a signal and intelligence company, a headquarters company an a service battalion (US support battalion).  A CMBG could be similarily equipped with the LAV-III as the common vehicle in place of the US FCS.  Each brigade could have 3 combined arms battalions dually trained in mechanized and light infantry.  The USMC infantry battalions are basically light infantry units that can also operate as mechanized infantry when carried in Amtracs.  Canadian infantry could be dually trained as light infantry and LAV-III Stryker equipped medium infantry.