Author Topic: Honours & Awards (merged)  (Read 166708 times)

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Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #400 on: March 29, 2018, 09:37:01 »
I was thinking of the Jubliee in particular.  It was "supposed" to be awardrd on merit, l think if you're to receive it your conduct should be clean.
If you want to recognize someone for growing then perhaps a "most improved" award of some sort should be created.

The Jubilee criteria (at least in the Army) had a criteria related to this - a fine of greater than $500 would automatically disclude a file, even if it was in the top 10% of the Merit List. 

I was troubled by that then, and I remain troubled by it now.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #401 on: March 29, 2018, 09:55:17 »
If conduct can delay or prevent someone from receiving their CD in the minimal time, or in one case I know of, the mbr never received the CD after 18 YOS (he may have later on, this was years ago), and the CD has standard, measureable criteria that applies to all CAF members then I have no issues with things like the Army *no fines greater than $500* criteria you're mentioned;  after all it is just the DJ we're talking about.  I don't know a single person who sees the DJ on someone and goes "oh wow, he/she must have really done something outstanding!".

There are thousand of members who serve decades having never been charged and contribute to the service of Canada and betterment of the Forces;  perhaps the QDJ was intended for those mbr's.   :dunno:

* question:  doesn't a guilty finding that results in a $500 or greater fine require a pardon to be removed from a mbr's service records?

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Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #402 on: March 29, 2018, 10:16:05 »
a Conduct sheet may negatively effect some decorations, such as the CD, based on the criteria:

The Canadian Forces' Decoration is awarded to officers and Non-Commissioned Members of the Canadian Forces who have completed twelve years of service. The decoration is awarded to all ranks, who have a good record of conduct.


That's interesting wording.  A good record of conduct could include a long list of convictions, but as long as the entries are accurate and sufficiently detailed, the record could be described as "good."  We keep "good" records of bad things all the time.  Syntax is important...
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Offline Brihard

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #403 on: September 18, 2018, 12:25:01 »
MND today put the nail through the heart of that petition that was circulating a little while back for a five year service medal.

http://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/ePetitions/Responses/421/e-1418/421-02405_DND_E.pdf
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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #404 on: September 18, 2018, 13:05:42 »
Since our coins have become complex with colours and insets, should decorations be "spiffed-up"?  There is growth industry potential herein and exports. Heck!  With miniature electronics they can be made to glow.   ;D

Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #405 on: September 19, 2018, 11:29:30 »
MND today put the nail through the heart of that petition that was circulating a little while back for a five year service medal.

http://www.ourcommons.ca/Content/ePetitions/Responses/421/e-1418/421-02405_DND_E.pdf

Good (until somebody else resurrects it...)!  None of these proposals were anything more than "CD Lite."
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Offline daftandbarmy

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #406 on: September 19, 2018, 11:32:34 »
Good (until somebody else resurrects it...)!  None of these proposals were anything more than "CD Lite."

Given the job jumping proclivities of upcoming generations, based mainly on the limited supply of skilled staff and the increasing demands of the economy, I'm guessing that the CD will then become more rare than the VC in the future ;)
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Offline Michael O'Leary

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #407 on: September 19, 2018, 11:33:43 »
Maybe someone will replace the minimum-service medal suggestion with a motorcycle vest patch option. They can create one that the owner can fill the blanks for the measuring contests: "I served for ___ years and ___ months and ___ days. You're welcome."

Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #408 on: September 19, 2018, 11:34:24 »
Since our coins have become complex with colours and insets, should decorations be "spiffed-up"?  There is growth industry potential herein and exports. Heck!  With miniature electronics they can be made to glow.   ;D

Apparently the Chelengk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelengk), created by the Ottomans centuries ago, sometimes had a clockwork incorporated into it so the "feathers" could turn and reflect sunlight in order to sparkle.
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Offline Ostrozac

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #409 on: September 19, 2018, 14:57:28 »
Quote
From the MND's recent statement:

Like many Commonwealth countries, Canada also adheres to a “five-year” retroactivity rule that precludes recognition for events occurring more than five years in the past.

This is the first I've heard of such a five-year rule. There have been Canadian medals that don't meet that timeline. Did we adopt that rule recently? Operational Service Medal - Haiti was created 6 years after Op HALO, and the Korea Volunteer Service Medal was established 38 years after the end of hostilities, which is probably something of a record.

Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #410 on: September 21, 2018, 10:21:23 »
This is the first I've heard of such a five-year rule. There have been Canadian medals that don't meet that timeline. Did we adopt that rule recently? Operational Service Medal - Haiti was created 6 years after Op HALO, and the Korea Volunteer Service Medal was established 38 years after the end of hostilities, which is probably something of a record.

It's more of a guideline or convention than an absolute rule.  In fact, there are no absolute rules when it comes to this stuff.  The Korea Volunteer Service Medal, the Arctic Star and the Bomber Command Bar were all created as a result of political pressure and against the recommendations of the honours and awards experts (and in the case of the Arctic Star, the express desires of George VI)
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Offline mariomike

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #411 on: September 21, 2018, 11:16:08 »
The Korea Volunteer Service Medal, the Arctic Star and the Bomber Command Bar were all created as a result of political pressure and against the recommendations of the honours and awards experts (and in the case of the Arctic Star, the express desires of George VI)

For every 100 aircrew of Bomber Command ( that includes RCAF );

12 Taken prisoner of war

1 Evaded capture

3 Seriously injured

9 Killed in crashes in the UK

51 Killed on operations
http://www.theunknownwarriors.co.uk/bomber-command/4533851453

They never received a campaign medal.

Awarding a clasp 68 years after the war was seen as too little, too late by some Bomber Command survivors,

QUOTE

Bomber Command veterans boycotting 'insulting' award
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/britain-at-war/10064299/Bomber-Command-veterans-boycotting-insulting-award.html
Bomber Command veterans disgusted at being offered only a clasp rather than a medal are boycotting the award, with barely half of those eligible having so far applied for it.

END QUOTE


« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 11:37:33 by mariomike »

Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #412 on: September 21, 2018, 13:20:07 »
For every 100 aircrew of Bomber Command ( that includes RCAF );

12 Taken prisoner of war

1 Evaded capture

3 Seriously injured

9 Killed in crashes in the UK

51 Killed on operations
http://www.theunknownwarriors.co.uk/bomber-command/4533851453

They never received a campaign medal.

Awarding a clasp 68 years after the war was seen as too little, too late by some Bomber Command survivors,

QUOTE

Bomber Command veterans boycotting 'insulting' award
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/britain-at-war/10064299/Bomber-Command-veterans-boycotting-insulting-award.html
Bomber Command veterans disgusted at being offered only a clasp rather than a medal are boycotting the award, with barely half of those eligible having so far applied for it.

END QUOTE

Let's not forget that they all qualified for the Aircrew Europe Star or other stars.  A "Bomber Command" Star would be akin to an "Eighth Army" Star.  Stars are awarded for campaigns, not formations.
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Offline Rheostatic

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #413 on: September 22, 2018, 12:41:56 »
(and in the case of the Arctic Star, the express desires of George VI)
Would you care to elaborate on this?

Offline mariomike

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #414 on: September 22, 2018, 13:03:59 »
For reference to the discussion,

Canadian sailors may finally get medals for Second World War service 
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=98672.0

New Bomber Command honour unveiled
https://army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=110250.0
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 13:08:04 by mariomike »

Offline Pusser

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #415 on: October 01, 2018, 12:43:17 »
Would you care to elaborate on this?

George VI didn't specifically say no to an Arctic Star, but rather the creation of any further stars.  As the fount of all honours, the monarch has to personally approve them (that is one part of the Royal Prerogative that has NOT be delegated to the GG).  After creating eight stars for WWII, the King specifically asked to not create any more as he felt that all possible service was adequately covered and that too many stars would dilute their value.  The Arctic Star is unique in being the only honour ever created, using the cypher of a dead monarch.
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Offline Rheostatic

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #416 on: October 01, 2018, 18:23:30 »
Interesting, thanks!

Offline Brasidas

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #417 on: November 27, 2019, 07:54:10 »
A mbr deploys on Op Impact to Kuwait. He spends more than 30 days there, qualifying for a GSM-EXP.

He then covers off a position in Iraq for over 30 days, qualifying for GCS-EXP, returning to Kuwait.

He then gets extended in Kuwait, such that he's there for at least 210 days, which is at least 180 days after he first qualified for the GSM but less than 180 days after he qualified for the GCS.

Does he qualify for both the GSM and GCS?

References, from the Canadian Medals Chart:

GCS-EXP
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/medals/medals-chart-index/general-campaign-star-expedition-gcs-exp.html

GSM-EXP
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/medals/medals-chart-index/general-service-medal-expedition-gsm-exp.html

"The GCS and GSM recognize 30 cumulative days (5 sorties for ALLIED FORCE ribbon of the GCS) provided that the service has not been recognized by another service medal."

I've been hearing about going 180 days past qualifying for one medal allowing the award of both, but I'm finding nothing clear on the chart. If he'd spent all of his time in one country, he'd have had a bar.

Further reference: CANFORGEN 072/10:
http://vcds.mil.ca/apps/canforgens/default-eng.asp?id=072-10&type=canforgen

"1
f.
WITH THE NEW PRINCIPLE OF ROTATION RECOGNITION, THE EXISTING PROVISION STATING THAT ONE CANNOT EARN BOTH THE GCS AND GSM IN RESPECT OF THE SAME OP IS AMENDED SO THAT IT IS NOW POSSIBLE FOR A PERSON TO EARN AND WEAR BOTH THE GCS AND THE GSM FOR A GIVEN THEATRE AS LONG AS THE PERSON DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA FOR BOTH DURING THE SAME 6 MONTHS PERIOD. WHEN A PERSON MEETS THE CRITERIA FOR THE GCS-SWA OR A BAR TO IT AND THE GSM-SWA OR A BAR TO IT WITHIN A PERIOD OF 180 DAYS, THE PERSON SHALL ONLY BE AWARDED THE GCS OR A BAR TO IT"

So here's where the 180 days seem to come in. I'm still not sure if the mbr would qualify for both.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 08:26:08 by Brasidas »

Offline Infanteer

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #418 on: November 27, 2019, 08:46:22 »
Email DHR on the DWAN.  They are generally pretty responsive.
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Offline Eye In The Sky

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #419 on: November 27, 2019, 16:50:37 »
A mbr deploys on Op Impact to Kuwait. He spends more than 30 days there, qualifying for a GSM-EXP.

He then covers off a position in Iraq for over 30 days, qualifying for GCS-EXP, returning to Kuwait.

He then gets extended in Kuwait, such that he's there for at least 210 days, which is at least 180 days after he first qualified for the GSM but less than 180 days after he qualified for the GCS.

Does he qualify for both the GSM and GCS?

References, from the Canadian Medals Chart:

GCS-EXP
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/medals/medals-chart-index/general-campaign-star-expedition-gcs-exp.html

GSM-EXP
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/medals/medals-chart-index/general-service-medal-expedition-gsm-exp.html

"The GCS and GSM recognize 30 cumulative days (5 sorties for ALLIED FORCE ribbon of the GCS) provided that the service has not been recognized by another service medal."

I've been hearing about going 180 days past qualifying for one medal allowing the award of both, but I'm finding nothing clear on the chart. If he'd spent all of his time in one country, he'd have had a bar.

Further reference: CANFORGEN 072/10:
http://vcds.mil.ca/apps/canforgens/default-eng.asp?id=072-10&type=canforgen

"1
f.
WITH THE NEW PRINCIPLE OF ROTATION RECOGNITION, THE EXISTING PROVISION STATING THAT ONE CANNOT EARN BOTH THE GCS AND GSM IN RESPECT OF THE SAME OP IS AMENDED SO THAT IT IS NOW POSSIBLE FOR A PERSON TO EARN AND WEAR BOTH THE GCS AND THE GSM FOR A GIVEN THEATRE AS LONG AS THE PERSON DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA FOR BOTH DURING THE SAME 6 MONTHS PERIOD. WHEN A PERSON MEETS THE CRITERIA FOR THE GCS-SWA OR A BAR TO IT AND THE GSM-SWA OR A BAR TO IT WITHIN A PERIOD OF 180 DAYS, THE PERSON SHALL ONLY BE AWARDED THE GCS OR A BAR TO IT"

So here's where the 180 days seem to come in. I'm still not sure if the mbr would qualify for both.

Based on the LRP experiences there;  no.   Reason; there must be 180 days between 'deployments' to qual for both the medal and star.  This is the rule that was being applied at DHR up until 2ish years ago.  This caused a lot of admin overhead for LRP, as we were based out of Kuwait but operated in Iraq and Syria.  It became a bit of a gong show.

I know of one person who had enough missions to qual for the star, and also enough days to qual for the medal from 1 ROTO.  Went back as part of a tail swap crew over 6 months later...and qual'd for the medal as soon as his boots touched pavement. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 17:03:47 by Eye In The Sky »
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Offline Dolphin_Hunter

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #420 on: November 28, 2019, 05:54:14 »
The 6 months between rotations is what I disagree with.  Why does it have to be that?  Where is this policy written?


BOTH THE GCS AND THE GSM FOR A GIVEN THEATRE AS LONG AS THE PERSON DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA FOR BOTH DURING THE SAME 6 MONTHS PERIOD.

This answers the “can I get both” question from the poster a few posts up.  Since they qualify for both in the same 6 month period.

Offline Brasidas

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #421 on: November 28, 2019, 06:53:02 »
The 6 months between rotations is what I disagree with.  Why does it have to be that?  Where is this policy written?


BOTH THE GCS AND THE GSM FOR A GIVEN THEATRE AS LONG AS THE PERSON DOES NOT MEET THE CRITERIA FOR BOTH DURING THE SAME 6 MONTHS PERIOD.

This answers the “can I get both” question from the poster a few posts up.  Since they qualify for both in the same 6 month period.

This is not for my own benefit, nor do I see that as a straight-forward answer.

The mbr did not qualify for both in their first 30 days, they qualified for one. They then stayed in theatre for at least another 6 month period. How is that considered to be "the person meeting the criteria for both in the same 6 month period"?

I am trying to get answers through other channels, including that suggested by Infanteer.

In the meantime, if you or another mbr can clarify how they do or do not qualify under those terms, I would appreciate it.

EITS, did the mbrs you're refering to stay in theatre for 210 or more days?

Offline tomahawk6

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #422 on: November 28, 2019, 09:56:55 »
How long was the deployment period ? 6 months. I would think that additional tours would merit a gong that's how our's work.

Offline PPCLI Guy

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #423 on: November 28, 2019, 18:46:48 »
How long was the deployment period ? 6 months. I would think that additional tours would merit a gong that's how our's work.

Our systems are markedly different.  We do not get a medal at end of a tour of duty (a posting in our speak).  A rack with 10-12 medals is considered significant, even after 30 plus years of service.
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Offline Dimsum

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Re: Honours & Awards (merged)
« Reply #424 on: November 28, 2019, 19:10:48 »
A rack with 10-12 medals is considered significant, even after 30 plus years of service.

10-12?!   :o
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