Author Topic: Battle Honours for Afghanistan  (Read 82504 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Haggis

  • "There ain't no hat badge on a helmet!"
  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 75,730
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 3,009
  • "Oh, what a glorious sight, Warm-reekin, rich!"
Re: Battle Honours
« Reply #125 on: May 09, 2014, 23:26:36 »
Train like your life depends on it.  Some day, it may.

Offline PuckChaser

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *
  • 944,605
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 8,672
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #126 on: May 10, 2014, 00:14:34 »
Being in the RCAF and being of Tac Hel background, frankly, if the list provided here is accurate, it amazes me that 400 and 438 Sqns are not on that list.  Last time I checked my personnel (and others from both of these Sqns) participated in Afghanistan with either the Sperwer or in support of the JTF-Afg Air Wing.  I usually remain silent, but not for this slight.  This is unsat (if the list is accurate).  Frankly put, without these two "total force" units, 1 Wg and Tac Hel would not have been able to function.  This is further emphasized when one considers what we did domestically when there was no one else left back in Canada to do it.  A little domestic op called Op PODIUM comes to mind, along with the G8 Conference (largest domestic deployments in Cdn history).  And we did this while we had pers over in Afg.

This better be fixed.

I didn't get a CinC commendation because my unit was not in the battle group UIC. Niether did a couple very large enablers. Was I upset? Yep. Did I get over it? Yep, pretty quickly too. At the end of the day, a theatre honour isn't going to change the hard work you put in.

Think of it this way, we don't get Battle/Theatre honours in Sigs. Took us 100 years to get a Royal Banner. Yet we're on every single operation you can name. We don't even have UBIQUE. Not a hill for me to die on to get that recognition.

Offline SeaKingTacco

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 169,025
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,878
  • Door Gunnery- The Sport of Kings!
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #127 on: May 10, 2014, 01:56:17 »
Interesting that neither 423 nor 443 Sqn were granted the Theatre Honour for "Arabian Sea", despite having been nearly continuously deployed in the region for the past 13 years and in the 2001-2003 period, each Sqn deployed more than their posted strength as part of Helairdets. At one point, I recall that 12 Wing had 12 HELAIRDETs, but generated and deployed 15 Helairdets during that period.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 312,370
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,646
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #128 on: May 10, 2014, 03:32:19 »
So with that having been said, what was (or will) our experience in Afghanistan be called?  Is it correct to refer to it as the Afghan War (although we were not at war with Afghanistan) the Afghanistan Conflict (kinda too mild given events that transpired), Canada's Mission in Afghanistan (not very catchy) or what?  Whats the "name" going to be or what is already accepted?

Most of the vets I know call it the 'Afghan war' or 'The war in Afghanistan'. And I suspect most of us don't give a rat's *** if some hand-wringers in Ottawa want to call it something different.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,980
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,187
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #129 on: May 10, 2014, 08:34:43 »
Kinda related, I've noticed that for the army its all infantry and armoured units, the sub-note explained why the arty and engineers don't get them, what about CSS elements or medic units how come they don't receive battle honours?
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Jungle

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 35,370
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,186
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #130 on: May 10, 2014, 10:01:02 »
Kinda related, I've noticed that for the army its all infantry and armoured units, the sub-note explained why the arty and engineers don't get them, what about CSS elements or medic units how come they don't receive battle honours?

Because they are not combatant units.
"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind."
- John G. Diefenbaker. July 1, 1960. From the Canadian Bill of Rights.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 306,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,840
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #131 on: May 10, 2014, 10:09:01 »
Kinda related, I've noticed that for the army its all infantry and armoured units, the sub-note explained why the arty and engineers don't get them, what about CSS elements or medic units how come they don't receive battle honours?

If it's any consolation, I'm pretty sure that the Infantry would be the first to point out that everything they were able to accomplish was enabled by those people.
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 355,100
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,700
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #132 on: May 10, 2014, 10:24:42 »
Being in the RCAF and being of Tac Hel background, frankly, if the list provided here is accurate, it amazes me that 400 and 438 Sqns are not on that list.  Last time I checked my personnel (and others from both of these Sqns) participated in Afghanistan with either the Sperwer or in support of the JTF-Afg Air Wing.  I usually remain silent, but not for this slight.  This is unsat (if the list is accurate).  Frankly put, without these two "total force" units, 1 Wg and Tac Hel would not have been able to function.  This is further emphasized when one considers what we did domestically when there was no one else left back in Canada to do it.  A little domestic op called Op PODIUM comes to mind, along with the G8 Conference (largest domestic deployments in Cdn history).  And we did this while we had pers over in Afg.

This better be fixed.

Interesting that neither 423 nor 443 Sqn were granted the Theatre Honour for "Arabian Sea", despite having been nearly continuously deployed in the region for the past 13 years and in the 2001-2003 period, each Sqn deployed more than their posted strength as part of Helairdets. At one point, I recall that 12 Wing had 12 HELAIRDETs, but generated and deployed 15 Helairdets during that period.

This is the kind of fallout that happens because the terms of reference for the award of Afghanistan honours was not made clear and distributed to all units which may be eligible. For the First World War, and again for he Second World War and Korea, the terms of reference were published first, and then it was the responsibility of units to demonstrate that they were eligible for the honours they felt were deserving based on their actions and contributions.

Conditions of Award of Battle Honours for The Great War 1914-1919

Second World War Battle Honours (Conditions governing the award of battle honours to regiments of the Canadian Army.)

33-1 Battle Honours - United Nations Operations - Korea 1950-1953

Offline Strike

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 34,541
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 4,463
  • Welcome to the Dead Parrot's Society.
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #133 on: May 10, 2014, 11:17:27 »
Interesting that neither 423 nor 443 Sqn were granted the Theatre Honour for "Arabian Sea", despite having been nearly continuously deployed in the region for the past 13 years and in the 2001-2003 period, each Sqn deployed more than their posted strength as part of Helairdets. At one point, I recall that 12 Wing had 12 HELAIRDETs, but generated and deployed 15 Helairdets during that period.

That was the first thing that came to mind for me as well.  Kind of like giving a battle honour to a combat unit but then telling them it doesn't include the recce element.
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline medicineman

  • Well stuck into my new job and thoroughly enjoying it.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 157,410
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,622
  • In Arduis Fidelis
    • Fed By The Firehose
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #134 on: May 10, 2014, 16:10:24 »
Kinda related, I've noticed that for the army its all infantry and armoured units, the sub-note explained why the arty and engineers don't get them, what about CSS elements or medic units how come they don't receive battle honours?

The Medical Branch, much like other elements, are assumed to be there.  There are no unit/Branch colours for Battle Honours to be attached, but a Royal Banner for the Branch/RCMS as we are now.

MM
MM

Remember the basics of Medicine - "Pink is GOOD, Blue is BAD, Air goes in AND out, Blood Goes Round and Round"

I may sound like a pessimist, but I am a realist.

Offline daftandbarmy

  • Army.ca Myth
  • *****
  • 306,065
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,840
  • The Older I Get, The Better I Was
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #135 on: May 10, 2014, 16:15:04 »
Here's the 'South West Asia Theatre Honours' list:

http://pm.gc.ca/news/2014/05/09/south-west-asia-theatre-honours
"The most important qualification of a soldier is fortitude under fatigue and privation. Courage is only second; hardship, poverty and want are the best school for a soldier." Napoleon

Offline George Wallace

  • Army.ca Fossil
  • *****
  • 436,695
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 31,592
  • Crewman
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2014, 16:34:32 »
Here's the 'South West Asia Theatre Honours' list:

http://pm.gc.ca/news/2014/05/09/south-west-asia-theatre-honours

 ;D

Bottom of previous page; « Reply #121 on: Yesterday at 23:08:42 »

Top of this page; « Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 23:26:36 »

Same link.

 ;D
DISCLAIMER: The opinions and arguments of George Wallace posted on this Site are solely those of George Wallace and not the opinion of Army.ca and are posted for information purposes only.
Unless so stated, they are reflective of my opinion -- and my opinion only, a right that I enjoy along with every other Canadian citizen.

Offline Infanteer

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Myth
  • *
  • 194,385
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 15,662
  • Honey Badger FTW!
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2014, 16:50:46 »
From the Infantry Corps, it looks like the Hasty Ps, the Cape Breton Highlanders and the Royal Newfoundland Regiment missed out - what happened there?
"Overall it appears that much of the apparent complexity of modern war stems in practice from the self-imposed complexity of modern HQs" LCol J.P. Storr

Offline OldTanker

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Member
  • *
  • 21,450
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 146
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2014, 17:00:01 »
Cape Breton Highlanders are listed but don't see the other two.

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 355,100
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,700
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2014, 17:11:30 »
Quote
Units of the Canadian Army will be granted the Theatre Honour “Afghanistan” if their cumulative contribution of personnel reached a minimum level of 20 per cent of the effective strength of the originating unit in the geographical area of Afghanistan. - See more at: http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2014/05/09/south-west-asia-theatre-honours#sthash.EtgN8qOj.dpuf

http://pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2014/05/09/south-west-asia-theatre-honours

Note that the terms of reference given in the backgrounder call for a percentage of unit strength, not a numerical head count. They may have had more people deployed than other units, but if they are a large unit they could still miss the percentage requirement. I have no doubt we'll see some of this revisited too.

Offline Brihard

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 312,370
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,646
  • Non-Electric Pop-Up Target
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #140 on: May 11, 2014, 01:48:26 »
If it's just two infantry units excluded, I suspect we'll see that revisited. The Hastys couldn't have been far from the threshold. I can't speak for 1 and 2 Newf, but I'd like to see someone explain the rationale to Brian Pinksen's family. Likewise Mark McLaren's, although he was wearing the Death Star the second time he was hit and ultimately killed. A sound argument can be made for the theatre honour going to all of the infantry units... Particularly given how we're very nearly there anyway.
Pacificsm is doctrine fostered by a delusional minority and by the media, which holds forth the proposition it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Offline Technoviking

    DANCE TO THE TECHNOVIKING.

  • Army.ca Subscriber
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 188,361
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,079
  • Requiescat in Pace
    • Canadian ASL Open
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #141 on: May 11, 2014, 07:32:18 »
As a former Plough Jockey,  this would be a kick in the teeth for The Regiment.  In the Second World War, The Regiment received more battle honour than any other Regiment.  I also remember that some infantry units have greater effective strength than others. So, in a way, one could perhaps say that smaller, less effective units are being rewarded for mediocrity.
(I know that we had a Hasty P in our BG HQ on 3-08.)
So, there I was....

Offline Rhodesian

  • Member
  • ****
  • 5,610
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 168
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #142 on: May 11, 2014, 09:58:14 »
As a  Patricia, I find it humbling to have  participated in a theater that will be listed alongside campaigns my family fought in during the World Wars.

The soldiers change, but the Regiment marches on. 

VP

Offline PPCLI Guy

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 221,515
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 5,746
  • It's all good
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #143 on: May 11, 2014, 11:12:41 »
As a  Patricia, I find it humbling to have  participated in a theater that will be listed alongside campaigns my family fought in during the World Wars.

The soldiers change, but the Regiment marches on. 

VP

 :salute:
"The higher the rank, the more necessary it is that boldness should be accompanied by a reflective mind....for with increase in rank it becomes always a matter less of self-sacrifice and more a matter of the preservation of others, and the good of the whole."

Karl von Clausewitz

Offline Sheep Dog AT

  • The Fly in Someone's Ointment - Giggity
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 58,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,219
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #144 on: May 11, 2014, 11:38:45 »
As a  Patricia, I find it humbling to have  participated in a theater that will be listed alongside campaigns my family fought in during the World Wars.

The soldiers change, but the Regiment marches on. 

VP

Very nicely stated
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
Oh Giggity Well...........Giggity

Offline Good2Golf

  • Directing Staff
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *
  • 254,775
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 12,009
  • Dammit! I lost my sand-wedge on that last jump!
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #145 on: May 11, 2014, 11:40:37 »
Interesting that neither 423 nor 443 Sqn were granted the Theatre Honour for "Arabian Sea", despite having been nearly continuously deployed in the region for the past 13 years and in the 2001-2003 period, each Sqn deployed more than their posted strength as part of Helairdets. At one point, I recall that 12 Wing had 12 HELAIRDETs, but generated and deployed 15 Helairdets during that period.

Kind of like when only 433e ETAC received the 'KOSOVO' battle honour for the campaign, but 408 THS and 430e ETAH did not, even though they were armed and actually landed on Kosovar soil? (vice just the Hornet's JDAMs)

Regards
G2G

Offline Old Sweat

  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 226,655
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 7,932
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #146 on: May 11, 2014, 11:44:31 »
As a former Plough Jockey,  this would be a kick in the teeth for The Regiment.  In the Second World War, The Regiment received more battle honour than any other Regiment.  I also remember that some infantry units have greater effective strength than others. So, in a way, one could perhaps say that smaller, less effective units are being rewarded for mediocrity.
(I know that we had a Hasty P in our BG HQ on 3-08.)

The current list should not be treated as the end of it. The RHLI had to wait from 1920 to 1926 to receive the battle honours of and to perpetuate the 4th Bn CEF, while the request by the Tor Scots for the battle honour "Dieppe" was initially refused because the number from the regiment present were below the approved level. When the regiment noted that may have been true, but all 36 of its Vickers were in action that day, the request was approved.

Offline Sheep Dog AT

  • The Fly in Someone's Ointment - Giggity
  • Army.ca Legend
  • *****
  • 58,120
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 10,219
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #147 on: May 11, 2014, 11:50:28 »
Remind me.  Which branch of gov't decides/reviews these decisions?
Apparently infamous for his one liners.
Oh Giggity Well...........Giggity

Offline MilEME09

  • Army.ca Veteran
  • *****
  • 47,980
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 2,187
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #148 on: May 11, 2014, 13:28:29 »
Because they are not combatant units.

I realize this but they still took part in the theatre
"We are called a Battalion, Authorized to be company strength, parade as a platoon, Operating as a section"

Offline Michael O'Leary

  • The moral high ground cannot be dominated by fire alone, it must be occupied to be claimed as held.
  • Army.ca Fixture
  • *****
  • 355,100
  • Rate Post
  • Posts: 9,700
    • The Regimental Rogue
Re: Battle Honours for Afghanistan
« Reply #149 on: May 11, 2014, 13:59:28 »
As I have argued here and elsewhere, the first requirement was a need for clear, revised, terms of reference for the award of honours. Those should have been made known to all units, and those terms should have formed the basis of the first round of discussions.

Instead, we have a list based on a generalized (and close held) approach and now we see the questioning about why certain regiments don't appear, and why certain types of units weren't given an opportunity to make the case for their eligibility. So let the public outcry begin, because the show is now over and the painful staffwork can follow, I guess.

This is why the awards of honours for past conflicts took years, because the Army wanted to get the right the first time. (And yes, even then, some follow-up occurred as Regiments waited for information to substantiate new arguments for additions.)