Author Topic: CH-148 Cyclone Progress  (Read 704050 times)

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Offline dot connector

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #100 on: January 23, 2008, 09:17:52 »
What about the notion that the S92 cabin door was too small for the Stokes litter causing Sikorsky to elongate the cabin area adding about a foot, shorten the tail by about 3 feet, thereby shifting the CG forward.  The center of gravity shift required the stab to be moved to the bottom of the tail creating a major source of delay for the production model S-92's??


Offline geo

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #101 on: January 23, 2008, 10:54:04 »
Dot.... references?

from the sikorsky site I get that the S92 can carry between 19  & 23 passengers & cargo in airline style comfort
and from the pics, they can certainly fit stokes litters aboard as well....
Chimo!

Offline dot connector

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #102 on: January 25, 2008, 14:33:43 »
Capacity, I don't think is an issue it was the door size and resulting modifications that may have created the problem.  The reference states the problem and the changes but doesn't go into the potential delay issue.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-helo-ch148-cyclone.htm

 

Offline Aden_Gatling

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #103 on: January 26, 2008, 08:32:24 »
Capacity, I don't think is an issue it was the door size and resulting modifications that may have created the problem.  The reference states the problem and the changes but doesn't go into the potential delay issue.

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-helo-ch148-cyclone.htm

No it doesn't; that articles states:
Quote
Stability problems during  the development of the H-92 [2]  required  a 40cm  fuselage stretch to shift the aircraft’s centre of gravity forward.
...
[2] Prototype H-92s experience a nose pitch-up at 60 knots (110 km/h). To correct the problem, Sikorsky redesigned the tail. Horizontal tail surfaces were repositioned from port to starboard and from a high-mounted to a low-mounted position (the earlier configuration is shown in the centre-left image, above). Size of the vertical fin was also reduced and the tail rotor position was lowered (resulting in lower weight).
  ::)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2008, 08:41:33 by Aden_Gatling »
There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot.

Offline dot connector

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2008, 08:39:02 »
At what point does the H-92 move from a military variant of the S-92 to becoming a fleet of 28 unique aircraft?

Is it when:  Stability problems during  the development of the H-92 [2]  required  a 40cm  fuselage stretch to shift the aircraft’s centre of gravity forward.
...
[2] Prototype H-92s experience a nose pitch-up at 60 knots (110 km/h). To correct the problem, Sikorsky redesigned the tail. Horizontal tail surfaces were repositioned from port to starboard and from a high-mounted to a low-mounted position (the earlier configuration is shown in the centre-left image, above). Size of the vertical fin was also reduced and the tail rotor position was lowered (resulting in lower weight).

When: New sub type engines are incorporated - GE CT7-8C

When: The S-92 has conventional rods and cables connecting the servos to the flight controls, while the H-92 will be a stand alone FBW system with no mechanical linkage or backup


Offline dot connector

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2008, 19:38:50 »
From this time line of events it would seem like FBW could be the number one candidate for the delay.  Does anyone have any additional data or alternative reasons?

01/08 - Sikorsky announces Delivery of the CH-148 Cyclones could be delayed by 30 months.  No reason given?
12/07- First H-92 helicopter to feature FBW has completed its first successful flight
07/07 – Still doing FBW ground testing – was to have had actual flight test in 02/07
06/07 – Paris Air Show – CH53K to use Hamilton Sundstrand FBW flight control computers and actuators - $150M and could reach $250M
Q1 ’07 – 2006 UTC Annual Report – Current S-92 models rely on Hamilton Sunstrand flight control computers and digital engine controls.  Future versions will add Hamilton-Sundstrand FBW technology.
07/06 – (flightglobal.com) – A testbed for the MH-92’s FBW technology flight control system will fly in 02/07, with delivery of the first of 28 Canadian aircraft (CH-148) scheduled for 11/08
06/05 – Paris Air Show – Black Hawk UH-60M to use Hamilton Sundstrand FBW flight control computers and actuators - $300M – 1,200 aircraft (more than 2,400 worldwide)
06/05 – Sikorskiy and NRS Aerospace win award for helicopter FBW flight control system for H-92
11/03 – FBW flight control for Sikorsky S-92 and H-92 helicopters to use BAE Systems CsLEOS Real-time Operating System
09/03 – BAE Systems developing FBW flight controls for Sikorsky S-92 and H-92 helicopters – under agreement BAE also becomes Sikorsky’s preferred supplier for future FBW systems

Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2008, 19:52:00 »
bit more . . .   I'm with you - I  too have a gut feel its the FBY

from post 143 awhile back.

"A FlightGlobal article dated 11 July 2006 states:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/11/07/210370/2006-helicopter-manufacturers-review.html

"A testbed for the MH-92's fly-by-wire flight control system will fly in February, with delivery of the first of 28 Canadian aircraft - designated CH-148 Cyclones - scheduled for November 2008."

That would be February 2007.



but by late July 2007 they were still doing ground testing

http://www.aviationtoday.com/categories/military/14368.html

"Monday, July 30, 2007
Canadian Maritime S-92 Fly-by-Wire Technology Passes First Ground Runs
Sikorsky Aircraft reports that fly-by-wire technology for the H-92 version of the S-92 that it is building for the Canadian Maritime Helicopter Program has passed two days of initial ground tests.


But it didn't fly until a few weeks ago.

http://www.sikorsky.com/details/0,9602,CLI1_DIV69_ETI2650,00.html

"Sikorsky Aircraft Helicopter With Fly-by-Wire Technology Completes Flawless First Flight

Dec. 21, 2007
-

STRATFORD, Conn., - The first H-92® helicopter to feature fly-by-wire technology has completed its first successful flight, Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. announced today. Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE:UTX).

The historic first flight took place on Dec. 20 at 9 a.m. from the Sikorsky Development Flight Center in West Palm Beach, Florida. The new fly-by-wire technology is designed to significantly improve aircraft maneuverability, safety and effectiveness. Sikorsky currently has two development programs which will feature the FBW technology, the X-2 Technology™ demonstrator, and the newest model of the BLACK HAWK helicopter, the UH-60M.

"This successful flight of the first H-92 helicopter to feature state-of-the-art fly-by-wire technology ushers in a new era for the H-92 product line," said Stephen B. Estill, Sikorsky vice president & chief marketing officer. "This aircraft was the first of a new generation of helicopters designed to new and more demanding standards for safety and reliability, and with fly-by-wire, it sets course for the path ahead and the next phase of flight testing in 2008."




This could be the delay . . . .  the time line fits - about 11 months


IF this ends up being the cause for the sched change/slip, then the PMO has known about it for quite a while.  I'd be really surprised if FBY was not on the Critical Path, so at the best case scenario any FBY delay is a day-for-day program slip.  And that's a best case.

Time will tell."


Offline dot connector

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2008, 16:29:57 »
Is going from hydraulics to FBW enough of a difference to in effect create a uniquely different airframe from the original S-92 and if so what does that mean to Canada?

Offline Domagala

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #108 on: February 21, 2008, 11:59:00 »
Anyone have any idea on how the Air Nav job is going to look like on the new Cyclone???   I applied for Air Nav for RMC 2009.....  and it would be real nice working on a brand new piece of equipment.
-Domagala :cdn:

Offline Baz

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2008, 05:58:21 »
The basic job description will be much like that on the Sea King.  the crew is staying the same with 2 Pilots, a Nav, and an AESOp.

Navigator is a little bit of a misnomer.  The aircraft has three EGIs (Embedded GPS/INS) to support the Fly By wire, plus a fourth GPS to support the pilots IFR .  So actually needing to do classical navigation won't be a focus, the job is about Tactics, thus the term Tactical Coordinator (TACCO).

Although the basic concepts will be similar to the Sea King, to plan and conduct the mission, the extra capabilities will make it much more challenging.  I think there will be even more pre and post flight interaction with the ship's Ops Room, with the addition of Link and EW sensors.  Airborne, there will be an increase in comms requirements due to the extra information being gathered, and the Tacco will still be responsible for tactical comms.  Picture compilation, sensor fusion and Link correlation will be huge tasks.  The division of labour for sensors (monitoring, operating, and analyzing) is yet to be figured out.  The Tacco will keep responsibility for weapons employment.

The "back door" (a little bit of a misnomer on the Cyclone, the hoisting door is front right) work will be the same - hoisting, slinging, etc.

I think Taccos will still have the opportunity to become crew commanders, which are essentially mission commanders in the MH world.

Its a great time to be MH  :D (an inside joke...)

Offline CharlieCF

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #110 on: April 23, 2008, 13:02:19 »
Has anyone heard anything more about the delays regarding the CH-148.  I know that the message seems to be that it is 30 months, but I still have not heard any clear confirmation from the Government or Sikorsky about this.  Both Sikorsky and the Canadian government are being very tightlipped on this, referring everything to the public works office, but no clear/real answers being given.  It seems to me that instead of working on making this story hidden and the reason for the delays not clearly defined, the government is protecting them, that doesn't seem right to me.  Any thoughts?

Offline h3tacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #111 on: April 23, 2008, 18:34:32 »
From the Treasury Board's website:

Quote
In November 2007, the project marked the three-year milestone in the implementation phase.  The project focus is now shifting from design and engineering to aircraft manufacturing and assembly followed by flight tests and delivery of the aircrafts.  The prime contractor has recently informed the government of a delay in the planned delivery date for the integrated Maritime Helicopter.  Government representatives are currently conducting a detailed review of all aspects of the contractor's schedule to determine how to minimize the impact of these delays and to ensure that they will not affect the key performance and airworthiness requirements of the Canadian Forces. Other components of the project such as construction of the Training Centre building in Shearwater, NS, and ship modification work on HMCS MONTREAL have progressed well and are on schedule.  The project is currently running within its authorized budget.

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/rpp/2008-2009/inst/dnd/dnd14-eng.asp#mcp16

Offline MarkOttawa

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2008, 16:25:49 »
Crap should hit the rotor:
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=80902dde-fa97-45b1-9296-fe7083d67811&k=81872

Quote
The long-awaited arrival of new military helicopters to replace Canada's worn-out Sea King fleet has been delayed by as many as three years [emphasis added], CanWest News Service has learned.

The obsolete, 1960s-era Sea Kings were due to be phased out starting this year with the arrival of new CH 148 Cyclone helicopters, designed to be flown off the decks of the navy's warships.

The first of 28 Cyclones - ordered in 2004 from Sikorsky International in Connecticut, at a cost of $1.8 billion - was scheduled to arrive at the Shearwater air base near Halifax in November this year, with additional aircraft coming one per month thereafter.

But military staff at Shearwater have been told that the first new Cyclone won't arrive until 2010 or 2011 - two to three years later than promised.

The team of pilots, mechanics and technicians assembled to do trials on the first new helicopter has also been put on hold because of the delay.

That means the military will have to keep the old Sea Kings flying - already a difficult task - another two or three years until the Cyclones are delivered and made operational...

Myrhaugen [ retired air force colonel, Sea King pilot, and former deputy commander of the military's maritime air group], one of a number of retired officers who have campaigned hard to have the Sea Kings replaced, says negotiations are currently underway between Ottawa and Sikorsky, the prime contractor, to rewrite portions of the Cyclone procurement contract.

He says new engineering requirements - likely a result of technology advances in certain aircraft components, which weren't foreseen in 2004 - mean the original contract must now be reworked.

"Manufacturers may well have new equipment or upgrades available. And as a result of it, they've come to a situation where the original contract is undeliverable," Myrhaugen says. "What's being negotiated between Sikorsky and the Crown is how we get the end product in view of that situation.

"This is not abnormal," he says, "but when contracts change it has an impact on arrival time and cost, and it's almost like starting over in some respects."

The original 2004 contract included penalties against the manufacturer in the event of delivery delays.

Myrhaugen says he isn't aware of any penalties being levied yet, and no official announcement has been made about any delays. Sikorsky's website still says the first Cyclone is due for delivery in November.

Officials at Sikorsky and the Department of Defence did not answer requests for interviews on the matter...

Myrhaugen says Sikorsky may still find a way to deliver the aircraft on time, but warns that if a delay occurs, "the likelihood of making the Sea Kings survive is extremely limited."

The Sea King's primary job is flying off Canada's frigates and destroyers. It is a valuable tool for surveillance, search and rescue, and transport .

But some Canadian warships no longer sail on overseas missions with helicopters - or with their full detachment of helicopters - because there aren't enough reliable Sea Kings available...

Myrhaugen says helicopter crews are only getting a fraction of the flying hours they were once required to have to maintain proficiency [emphasis added].

"It's sinful. They've cut back to the absolute essentials," he says.

The Sea Kings were going to be replaced more than a decade ago with new helicopters purchased by the Brian Mulroney government but, in 1993, then-incoming prime minister Jean Chretien cancelled the contract. A new contract was not signed until 2004, after Paul Martin came to power...

Mark
Ottawa
Ça explique, mais ça n'excuse pas.

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #113 on: April 29, 2008, 16:51:29 »
Have they stopped the flow of pipes into the MH community as a result of this delay?

Offline CharlieCF

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #114 on: April 29, 2008, 16:59:02 »
What is causing the delay?  At first I thought it may be the FBW, but I read recently that Sikorsky is fielding aircraft in the UK that has the capabilities that are going to be included in their CSAR bid in the US.  I know that they are moving the FBW technology into their bid, so what other problems is the company having that is causing these delays?  Also, why is the government not upset about this.  The government does not seem to be readily trying to force Sikorsky to get these aircrafts out on time or pay for a solution that would allow them to have aircraft beginning in November that would suffice until the Cyclone is ready (I am thinking of leasing here). 

Not trying to suppose that there is some cover-up here, but it seems to me that their is some relationship between Sikorsky and the government that precludes anyone from knowing the real cause.

Sikorsky also has their highly-paid lobbyists who are keeping Sikorsky on the governments good graces and the media out of the government and Sikorsky's face as much as possible regarding the delays.

Offline Hippie

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #115 on: April 29, 2008, 17:50:45 »
Have they stopped the flow of pipes into the MH community as a result of this delay?

Negatron.  Until we are told otherwise, we still need to generate aircrew to fly the Sea King, since she'll be gleefully galavanting about the heavens until well after the new bird arrives.

Another group of four pipes are slated to start the OTU around the Jul / Aug timeframe, around the time my course should be finished.  In addition, one guy just got posted to 423 Sqn off the most recent BHS course, probably looking at a Jan 09 start.

Offline geo

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #116 on: April 29, 2008, 18:32:37 »
Am confused...
They have a relatively large number of Cyclones coming down the pipe.
Would it be practical to take 50% with current - existing technology and permit the delay of the balance to benefit from the technology upgrades... they when we bring the 1st "old" batch into the shop for a major refit, we could process the upgrades.

Sounds simple to me - though I am not a rotorhead
Chimo!

Offline SeaKingTacco

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #117 on: April 29, 2008, 20:41:34 »
Quote
Myrhaugen says helicopter crews are only getting a fraction of the flying hours they were once required to have to maintain proficiency [emphasis added].

Ummm...No.  12 Wing flew a record amount last year.

Pipes of all types (Nav, AES Op and Pilot) are still flowing to 12 Wing- enjoy flying the classic bird while you still can- people will lament the eventual passing of the Sea King.

Offline Baden Guy

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #118 on: April 30, 2008, 07:34:30 »
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080430.CHOPPERS30//TPStory/Front

Cost overruns endanger copter deal
Ottawa warns it could kill contract after U.S.-based Sikorsky requests up to $500-million more in its bid to replace aging Sea Kings
DANIEL LEBLANC and STEVEN CHASE AND BRIAN LAGHI

April 30, 2008

OTTAWA -- Federal officials are threatening to cancel a $5-billion contract with Sikorsky Inc. because the U.S.-based helicopter maker is asking for up to $500-million in extra funds to replace Canada's 40-year-old Sea Kings.

Senior sources said the relationship between Ottawa and Sikorsky took a turn for the worse after the firm acknowledged this year that it was running late in its plans to provide 28 high-tech Cyclone helicopters to the Canadian Forces.

The government's controversial efforts to replace the Sea Kings, which go back to the early 1990s, are now complicated by Sikorsky's request for more funds to deliver replacement helicopters.

Sikorsky officials refused to comment on the current negotiations, but senior federal officials said the company has requested between $250-million and $500-million in new funding.


More at link

Offline geo

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #119 on: April 30, 2008, 07:57:37 »
Lovely!

Bid low to land the contract, give the impression that everything is ducky & on schedule for xx months - in order to go beyond the drop dead line AND then hit your client with a whammy - cost overruns that make the whole deal a "take it or leave it"....

Just lovely!
Chimo!

Offline beenthere

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #120 on: April 30, 2008, 08:40:15 »
This is starting to smell bad. Very bad. We're now funding the development of new technology rather than buying helicopters.
But not lately. If I could do it all over again I would  change one thing.

Offline Haletown

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #121 on: April 30, 2008, 10:31:08 »
The article in the Globe doesn't really say much. 


The big issue is that one side - the Government, has "gone public" . . .   which means that the negotiations have gone very sour and the tactics used have totally changed.  Saving face is now part of the deal.

Too bad they couldn't have settled quietly.  I'd bet it's going to get messy.

Offline CharlieCF

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2008, 12:28:15 »
Thank goodness the government is finally saying something.  I love Brousseu's quote of the "contractors claimed reasons for the delays".  I think that finally truth is coming out.  Sikorsky has been saving face for a very long time now, but that was a ticking time bomb.  Can only hold up a front of denial for so long.  I wonder how these delays are going to affect the U.S. CSAR competition considering that the platform they can't deliver to the Canadian government is the same one that they are proposing in this competition.  I would love to hear Sikorsky's "claimed" reasons for the delay, or should I say the true reasons.


Offline Strike

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #123 on: April 30, 2008, 12:37:46 »
"It's a good time to be MH!"

How long have people been saying that?   ::)
Stop assuming I'm a man!

Don't know how long I want to keep playing this game...

Offline Jace

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Re: CH-148 Cyclone Progress
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2008, 14:07:01 »
Negatron.  Until we are told otherwise, we still need to generate aircrew to fly the Sea King, since she'll be gleefully galavanting about the heavens until well after the new bird arrives.

Another group of four pipes are slated to start the OTU around the Jul / Aug timeframe, around the time my course should be finished.  In addition, one guy just got posted to 423 Sqn off the most recent BHS course, probably looking at a Jan 09 start.

And that guy is me! Just here in MJ at the Glass Palace waiting for my HHT....  so I'm catching up on all the rumors!