Author Topic: Canadian Special Operations Regiment (CSOR)  (Read 525017 times)

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Offline Tracker 23A

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Re: JATF
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2005, 20:13:17 »
True true. Must be that highly trained university mind of mine, going into overload.   ;D

Interesting info.

Quote
The best soldiers are getting back-up

The defence budget is shrinking, the cost of high-tech warfare soaring. How is Britain to remain a front-line military power? One answer, in a favourite phrase of warmongering tabloid newspapers, is to "send in the SAS"-the Special Air Service, perhaps the best of all elite regiments.

Over the past decade, British special-force (SF) fighters, comprising the SAS and their naval sister unit, the Special Boat Service (SBS), have been more busy in more places than at any time since the SAS was founded-to play merry heck behind German lines in 1941. First came peacemaking in the Balkans, then wars in Sierra Leone, Afghanistan and Iraq, and counter-terrorism all over the place. The burden, which springs from America's war on terror and an interventionist British foreign policy, will not be lifted soon. And yet the combined strength of the SAS and SBS is only believed to be around 400 men.

Alas, their number cannot simply grow. Although a fourth SBS squadron is being raised from the toughest marine commandos, recruiting many more men would entail easing the entry requirements. Better to train and dedicate high-grade infantrymen to support SF operations, freeing the best soldiers for the most demanding tasks. Hence the Joint Special Forces Support Group (JSFSG), an outfit modelled on America's army rangers, and whose first members, from the parachute regiment, are enjoying a preliminary outing with the SAS in Baghdad.

One of several army reforms announced in December, the JSFSG will become partially operational next April and ready by 2008. At its heart will be the Parachute Regiment's 1st battalion, which will be cut to 476 soldiers-in effect, losing a company of 70 men. It will also have a company of marine commandos and a similar number of experts from the air force, including forward air-controllers. The support group is to be led by the paras' commanding officer and dedicated to its new role; the battalion has already been removed from the infantry order of battle.

The army is cockahoop. Before the recent shake-up, it faced losing four infantry battalions. Thanks to its canny boss, the JSFSG's architect, General Sir Mike Jackson, it has, in effect, lost only three. That the general himself commanded "1 para" suggests a spot of backroom manoeuvring; he describes the group's formation as "a very good result for the army".

The SAS and SBS are also pleased. Already the most pampered of British fighters, they can expect dedicated back-up in three main areas. First, as conventional support: the group might, say, secure a fuel supply for forward SF troops. Second, as an auxiliary strike force for SF operations; the paras have already performed this task in Sierra Leone in 2000, when they eradicated a vicious militia called the West Side Boys (led by Commanders Mega-Rapist and Slaughter, among others), after SAS troopers had sprung 11 British hostages from the militia camp. Third, the support group can train the special forces of allies. As these, often from oil-rich Middle-Eastern countries, are typically none too special, the paras are easily up to the job.

The Parachute Regiment, which has always thought itself a cut above the general infantry, is also pleased. Para recruits will now enter the regiment's 2nd and 3rd battalions for a year or two, before being encouraged to apply for the JSFSG; members of other infantry battalions will also be able to apply. After a similar spell in the support group, most will return to their units. But the best may seek to join the SF. Having learnt SF drills in the support group, they will have done no harm to their chances. Around 175 soldiers brave each of the SAS's twice-yearly six-month selection courses and around 30 are accepted-almost half of whom are paras.

Members of the JSFSG are technically part of the ordinary armed forces. Not so the directorate's other recent addition, the Special Reconnaissance Regiment (SRR), the first new SF unit in half a century, and the only one open to women. The regiment existed in prototype as 14th intelligence company, a plainclothes surveillance unit in Northern Ireland. As military operations scale down there, the new SRR will safeguard its skills.

Food for thought...

« Last Edit: October 30, 2005, 20:18:22 by Tracker 23A »

Offline UberCree

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Re: JATF
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2005, 11:13:29 »
This arguement is as old as soldiering... and I'm sure will never be finalized to both sides satisfaction.

All I can say speaking for myself and others in my position is that I joined the U.S. military specifically because I did not want to be a 'peacekeeper', I wanted to be part of a unit that I knew would be hard, that I knew would suck and that I knew may go to war.  At the time I signed up there was no Airborne and no JTF.  There are still many people in Canada, believe it or not, that honour the warrior spirit.  Many of my treaty (status Indian) brethren have volunteered to serve in the U.S. specifically to go to war.  My community right now has two people over in Iraq with the U.S. military.  Canada wide there are many.
There is nothing wrong in my eyes with having a unit or units that epitomize the pinnacle of soldiering and the warrior spirit.  It gives us free agents (I consider a reservists in Canada to be a free agents, as they get to pick and chose what they want to do) something attractive to be a part of that would pull us away from our cush jobs or aspiring careers. 

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: JATF
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2005, 11:53:59 »
As I stated on another thread:

In view of the latest on this "transformational" piece, in my humble opinion this is the best thing our CF could be doing at this point.

Congratulations to all involved.

The army will survive this and be stronger for it in the long term.  Certainly the infantry battalions will bear the brunt of this.  Sort the recruiting and training out for the backfills and let us get on with this. 

Absolutely the best thing to come out of the transformation of the CF.

Yup.  It will depend greatly on how Comd CANSOFCOM and CLS work out the transfer of folks from the battalions into the JATF.  Training in the JATF's final resting spot will likely support mission focus, so I don't think there's an issue there.  Heard rumblings ranging from "All the "3" Bn's of the Regt's" to "a platoon from each company".  Not sure it will be that much anyway, but there will have to be a balance between making sure JATF gets the folks who will either immediately or be able to be trained in a short period of time to meet the Force's requirement while still ensuring that the line BN's have enough critical mass not only to continue to feed the JATF but also perform their conventional tasks as admirably as they have in the past.  I think there's more than enough professionalism in today's Army to achieve those missions...not saying it won't be without pain, but as Devil39 says, "stronger for it in the long term."

Personally, I'm also waiting to see how some of the supporting orgs shake out on this one...rumblings of a SOAR to support JTF/JATF are starting to percolate...couldn't make me happier.  At the end of the day, support to the overall mission with the range of warfighting capabilities available is the name of the game.

p.s. Piper, I think you're getting a bit "black and white" on the "SOF at the cost of conventional forces"  thing, i.e. SOF "lop-sidedly" vice balance of SOF and conventional forces.  I see a balance over here right now, and with things ramping up in Feb, it's not like conventional forces are at all disappearing from play...

Cheers,
Duey

Offline SHELLDRAKE!!

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Re: JATF
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2005, 13:30:01 »
while still ensuring that the line BN's have enough critical mass

 How can this realistically work if we can't even bring in the 5000 fresh meat troops to backfill the positions of the plethora of troops wanting to be in JATF?
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Offline Good2Golf

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Re: JATF
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2005, 13:41:16 »
How can this realistically work if we can't even bring in the 5000 fresh meat troops to backfill the positions of the plethora of troops wanting to be in JATF?

Shelldarke, by "critical mass", I don't mean as many troops as each Battalion has, or even had in the mid/late-80's, but rather enough so that core competencies and professional soldiering can be trained to the required levels for the number of soldiers that will exist in the line units at steady state.  I wouldn't try to pretend for a second that it won't involve significant reductions...I'll let you know about a similar scale of adjustment within aviation as it relates to line Army support and CANSOF support when some public announcements are made in the near future.  I think you'll find we are all going to have to get used to even more change.  I'll reiterate what Devil39 said..."we'll be stronger for it in the long term"...it's just that we may not look overly similar to how we do today.

Cheers,
Duey

Offline SHELLDRAKE!!

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Re: JATF
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2005, 14:17:09 »
 I am very glad that JATF has been proposed and is being implemented but IMHO this military needs atleast 5 years away from operations to recruit and resupply with a proper budget in order to rebuild properly. It sounds to me like we will be spread thin with no money and minimal equipment, which will take twice as long to bring our military up to speed.
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Offline KevinB

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Re: JATF
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2005, 15:36:00 »
The 031's join for action -- do five years without tours and they will have all gotten out.
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Offline wack-in-iraq

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Re: JATF
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2005, 09:07:33 »
The 031's join for action -- do five years without tours and they will have all gotten out.


after 6 years in the infantry and a tour to bosnia i had to quit the army to come to iraq and get some action, thats not the way it should be. at the same time though i really have no desire to see casualty lists with canadian names on them like they have for the US troops that bite it here.
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: JATF
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2005, 10:01:53 »
It will be interesting to see how this is fleshed out.  Being that eventually it will be open to all (are other Tier 2 units like this?) I think that there is an equal chance for mech infantry to make the grade as well given that they do have specialty courses as well.
Questions I hope that will be answered by our Senior members here once they get the brief are:
Where is this new unit going be stood up?
What's selection going to be, ie 2 days covering all aspects of war fighting or more like the JTF (running, mind games etc)?  Might be hard for a air force guy to set up a fighting patrol if that's what selection will be like.
How is the french Canadians going to fit in.  Will this be a posting were members must be able to speak English or will there be a french element (ie platoon) as well.
How much emphasis will be placed on jumpers (ie having the course prior).
When are they going to start selection?
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Offline Gunner

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Re: JATF
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2005, 10:03:05 »
CFL, as far as I am aware, you are correct (full time contract).
Had a wonderful ~26 years in the military and still miss it.

Offline pbi

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Re: JATF
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2005, 20:59:36 »
We got the briefing yesterday. I don't have too much new to add, except to say that the source was authoritative. I can confirm that the JATF will be a battalion-size "SOF-capable" unit, something similar to US Rangers or the new Spec Ops sp unit capability being created in both the UK and Australian armies. It will be created by drawing in selectees from across the CF (although everybody readily admits that most will be Army, most of those will be Inf, and most of those will probably be from the Lt Bns. It will NOT be recruited off the street. The Army (predominantly) will take a manning hit in the beginning, but the view is that we are not at an end state, nor even near it, as far as the final shape of things goes. If we want to build capability, the view is to strike now while the iron is hot, get that capability established, even if it means taking pain. There was no clear explanation as to how we will "rebuild" the depleted units, particularly in view of the fact that our recruiting is not doing as well as expected.

The Res component that some posters have referred to will not (right now, anyway...) be part of the JATF. It will exist as part of CANSOFCOM (the current name for the SOG), along with a number of other non-JTF2 elements.

And, JATF will wear a tan beret...

Cheers
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Offline Haggis

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Re: JATF
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2005, 21:37:04 »
....something similar to US Rangers

And, JATF will wear a tan beret...

Well if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it must be......?? ;D

Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?  Why not ressurect "Special Service Force"??  Build on the warrior customs and hardy traditions of The Devil's Brigade.

Heck, I'd be there in a minute!
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Offline Krazy-P

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Re: JATF
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2005, 22:16:24 »
Where is this new unit going to be stationed??

Offline silentbutdeadly

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Re: JATF
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2005, 22:22:52 »
It is going to be in Pet. from what i hear, but thats makes it pretty packed there with 2 btln's from the RCR there also, poor Pembroke girls!  ;)

Offline MCG

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Re: JATF
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2005, 22:30:44 »
Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?   Why not ressurect "Special Service Force"??   Build on the warrior customs and hardy traditions of The Devil's Brigade.
I agree that there could have been a better name, but a lot have said the same of JTF 2 (could have been SAS).   Maybe SSF was not considered because it was the name of a formation and not of a unit.


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Re: JATF
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2005, 22:38:08 »
I agree that there could have been a better name, but a lot have said the same of JTF 2 (could have been SAS).   Maybe SSF was not considered because it was the name of a formation and not of a unit.

So maybe we don't get the name back, but I'm quite convinced that the old SSF (jump) smock would go so well with cadpat pants and a tan beret!!  :-X I loved that smock!! I think the tan beret I could do without.
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Offline Sheep Dog AT

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Re: JATF
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2005, 00:04:48 »
Oh the choices:
OT
suck it up in the regs
Work my *** off and try this new unit were you can get a lot more kit work with the best people but be away a lot more often for a lot longer.
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Offline Unknown Factor

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Re: JATF
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2005, 01:12:47 »
Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?  

What does it matter? It's not the name but the game you bring to the big show that counts.  Besides Army is moving forward, so what would be accomplished by dredging up old ideas. - As well JTF2 was already adopted the SSF battle honours.  I think most are just happy finding out what is going on through the usual channels and keeping the hear-say at work.

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Re: JATF
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2005, 06:38:18 »
I agree. Who cares what they call it? Lets get on with it and get the job done (or in this case, lets get it started). Armyvern, trying to relive 1988 are you? Jumpsmocks are way gone. They don't even wear them at CPC now.
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Offline signalsguy

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Re: JATF
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2005, 07:39:27 »
I'm hearing some pretty negative chatter here in Ottawa about the whole thing. Not the JATF so much but the CANSOFCOM HQ. Its mostly sigs types bitching about it being a big move of the JOG up to Ottawa, with all of their attached B/S including a big part of the JSR. I have to take it with a big grain of salt, looking at where its coming from of course. I think maybe these individuals are confusing things with CEFCOM. Moving JSR hierarchy up here and making them the core of a new signal element of a new HQ would be a MAJOR blunder.... (IMHO)

Anyway, apparently the JATF idea is not looked upon too positively either. Once again, BIG grain of salt because alot of the people around this place (NDHQ) are frigging lifers here... (RCR Major with a CD and thats it?!?)

I for one am pretty excited, this is a good move for the Army, it gives us all something to aspire to in addition to JTF2 (if thats your thing). Speaking with friends in Pet and Gagetown, it seems that certain parts of the sigs community are pretty 'stoked' to get involved. Hopefully this will turn out to be a good thing, both the JATF and CANSOFCOM HQ.

Offline Good2Golf

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Re: JATF
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2005, 08:38:33 »
....
Couldn't they come up with a better name than Joint Action Task Force?   Why not ressurect "Special Service Force"??   Build on the warrior customs and hardy traditions of The Devil's Brigade.
.....

There were several options, including stuff with "support" in the title, but in the end, SOF community felt JATF best described what the force would do, and it lines up with the bigger SOF family around the world...terms such as JSOTF/CJSOTF/CJATF/etc... 

...well that and Gen Hillier liked it, too.

While having supported SSF folks in the past but not being in the force myself, I'm not sure JATF is any worse than SSF in the sense that does "Special Service" any better define and lay a path for future ops than "Joint Action" (which is what it will be, albeit it soldier/infantry heavy)?  Also, who say JATF isn't going to build on the customs and hardy traditions of the Devil's Brigade.

I never heard folks from the hill complaining that there wasn't SF or SOF somewhere in JTF's name...no reason to winge about it here.  Folks should be looking forward to what a great organization the JATF can be, not whingeing about how the name could have been something better.


...now the tan beret...that one came out of left field! ::)

Cheers,
Duey

Offline MikeH

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Re: JATF
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2005, 08:54:43 »
Why does everything have to be in Ontario?Whats wrong with man,Sask,ab,BC.Spread the army out why bunch it up? :cdn:
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Offline George Wallace

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Re: JATF
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2005, 09:32:37 »
Why does everything have to be in Ontario?Whats wrong with man,Sask,ab,BC.Spread the army out why bunch it up? :cdn:
To defend Ottawa from 10 Mtn Div - if you haven't heard that conspiracy theory yet.

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Offline UberCree

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Re: JATF
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2005, 11:01:13 »
Tan beret?  Hmmm, my spidey senses are detecting a trend here. 

Now for the important question.  What's the housing like in Pett?  Should us real estate investors be buying up rental properties?!  HAHA

Offline GO!!!

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Re: JATF
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2005, 12:22:09 »

Being located in Pet is convenient for their major goal of supporting the JTF who are based in Ottawa.

We have a winner!

Besides, the HQ has already been stood up, and the barracks built all in wonderful Pet!

The location will definitely determine that only the guys who really want to soldier will try out (posted to Pet - shudder)
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