A Deeply Fractured US

[Brad Sallows]

Right. You do you. I'm out.

Always happy to serve up a non-conforming view.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Re-read the Declaration of Independence. The bar for justifying armed revolt is pretty high. Squabbles over policy ain't in it.

Following up on a previous question: you see opposition protests against heavy-handed ICE folks having reached “armed revolt”?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Following up on a previous question: you see opposition protests against heavy-handed ICE folks having reached “armed revolt”?

Close. The new Black Panthers protesting while being strapped. It's their legal right, but it'll only take an ND to light a fire.

 

[FJAG]

If I'm not mistaken, Trump has power and reasons to enact the Insurrection Act right now, if he wishes. He just needs to push the button.

The threshold for what constitutes insurrection is much higher than what you think it is. January 6th was a real attempt at insurrection tacitly approved by this president. The fact that the insurrectionists were pardoned very early on in this president's current administration means that he has two very different standards for what acts constitute insurrection: on the one hand are actions by people who please him and on the other are those by people he doesn't like. Rule of law has no meaning when you divide a people into "us" and "them."

There is no insurrection going on in the US. What is going on is a small number of constitutionally permitted protests by a people against the irrational and jack-booted excesses brought on by an extremist administration and their thugs.

Removing illegal - and especially criminal - aliens is one thing. Willy-nilly dragging innocent American citizens into the streets in their underwear because they look brown or Asian is an entirely different thing. These clowns can't tell the difference.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Following up on a previous question: you see opposition protests against heavy-handed ICE folks having reached “armed revolt”?

Not unless they're using arms. Unquestionably they're opposing lawful federal authority.

Nullification is one of the contentious points in the US context, particularly since it featured in the run-up to the US Civil War. It's why you might see some people trying to draw a line from the Confederacy (or school segregationists in the '50s) to opponents of immigration enforcement by ICE.

Somewhere before civil war it's possible to cross the threshold for "insurrection", and trigger uses of the Insurrection Act. What is "insurrection" is not defined by the constitution. If "obstruction to the laws" meets whatever other characteristics are customarily required, use of means up to and including the regular forces is authorized.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The threshold for what constitutes insurrection is much higher than what you think it is. January 6th was a real attempt at insurrection tacitly approved by this president. The fact that the insurrectionists were pardoned very early on in this president's current administration means that he has two very different standards for what acts constitute insurrection: on the one hand are actions by people who please him and on the other are those by people he doesn't like. Rule of law has no meaning when you divide a people into "us" and "them."

There is no insurrection going on in the US. What is going on is a small number of constitutionally permitted protests by a people against the irrational and jack-booted excesses brought on by an extremist administration and their thugs.

Removing illegal - and especially criminal - aliens is one thing. Willy-nilly dragging innocent American citizens into the streets in their underwear because they look brown or Asian is an entirely different thing. These clowns can't tell the difference.

I'm attempting to make points without bias. Probably not succeeding. Jan 6 is far from settled. There is a proper, sanctioned committee looking at it right now. Too bad Pelosi's bunch destroyed all the records. You say it was a blatant attempt at insurrection. Yet not one person arrested by the democrats were charged with it. Do you seriously think Pelosi wouldn’t have pursued those charges to bolster her conspiracy, if she could've?

Legal experts, on both sides, have conceded conditions exist to proclaim the Act in MN.

Your bile detracts from your point.

Jan 6 has nothing to do with what is going on in MN, right now.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not unless they're using arms. Unquestionably they're opposing lawful federal authority.

Nullification is one of the contentious points in the US context, particularly since it featured in the run-up to the US Civil War. It's why you might see some people trying to draw a line from the Confederacy (or school segregationists in the '50s) to opponents of immigration enforcement by ICE.

Somewhere before civil war it's possible to cross the threshold for "insurrection", and trigger uses of the Insurrection Act. What is "insurrection" is not defined by the constitution. If "obstruction to the laws" meets whatever other characteristics are customarily required, use of means up to and including the regular forces is authorized.

I find it ironic that in the case of the Civil War and the goings on in MN, that the democrats are at fault for both.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I find it ironic that in the case of the Civil War and the goings on in MN, that the democrats are at fault for both.

The party lineage is a fact, but it's not really the same membership. Southern Democrats migrated to being southern Republicans. And political realignment in the southern states was mostly over economic/fiscal policies, not racial ones. Along the way, the actual kinds of people who were southern Democrats became mostly extinct.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Is that a serious question?

The real world isn't an intellectual problem. It is affected by intent, method, personal animus, animal spirits, force ratios, political retribution etc.

Shooting a Mom in the face certainly may have had an influence on local response.

The feds outnumber the city police by a factor of 5. 600 cops vs 3000 federal agents. Some of those cops have been targeted by ICE while off duty, to prove their US citizenship. All of those targeted so far are people of colour.

Show me any other location where this disparity of force exists or existed.

Unfortunately many/most illegal aliens are people of colour. There are at least 11 million illegal aliens in the United States. Vast majority (90%) are people of colour from a few select regions.

It's not really shocking ICE would target people of colour for immigration enforcement operations where that's where the problem is.

As for the women. They were naive and stupid to get in to it with the ICE agents. They may have felt they were right but confronting individuals that are armed is never smart, doesn't matter if it's criminals, police, or anyone for that matter. People seem to think being right is more important than self-preservation. Congratulations, you were right... you're also now dead.

I felt a tremendous sense of grief and sadness for the wife who had gotten in to a heated argument with ICE agents. The video of her reaction after her wife got shot in the face was telling. Her emotions led her to make some really poor decisions.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Close. The new Black Panthers protesting while being strapped. It's their legal right, but it'll only take an ND to light a fire.

Better or worse than armed, masked folks just standing in state legislatures during Covid?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Unfortunately many/most illegal aliens are people of colour. There are at least 11 million illegal aliens in the United States. Vast majority (90%) are people of colour from a few select regions.

It's not really shocking ICE would target people of colour for immigration enforcement operations where that's where the problem is.

As for the women. They were naive and stupid to get in to it with the ICE agents. They may have felt they were right but confronting individuals that are armed is never smart, doesn't matter if it's criminals, police, or anyone for that matter. People seem to think being right is more important than self-preservation. Congratulations, you were right... you're also now dead.

I felt a tremendous sense of grief and sadness for the wife who had gotten in to a heated argument with ICE agents. The video of her reaction after her wife got shot in the face was telling. Her emotions led her to make some really poor decisions.

Race can surely not be sufficient justification to detain someone without any other cause, or indeed a warrant?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The party lineage is a fact, but it's not really the same membership. Southern Democrats migrated to being southern Republicans. And political realignment in the southern states was mostly over economic/fiscal policies, not racial ones. Along the way, the actual kinds of people who were southern Democrats became mostly extinct.

Your point is salient and true. However, I think your on a level of about 2% of the population. The other 98% won't ever come close to considering your point. Emotional animals react to immediate action. There is little involved in their response except instinct.

 

[Lumber]

Your point is salient and true. However, I think your on a level of about 2% of the population. The other 98% won't ever come close to considering your point. Emotional animals react to immediate action. There is little involved in their response except instinct.

More than 2% of the US population wouldn't be able to tell you when the civil war was or what it was all about, so I think your numbers are a bit off. 98% of the population isn't going to look at anything the Democrats are doing and think "Geeze, first the civil war, then segregation, and now this?!"

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Better or worse than armed, masked folks just standing in state legislatures during Covid?

Not getting your point. I just stated a verifiable fact about armed Black Panthers. I don't understand your tie in.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Race can surely not be sufficient justification to detain someone without any other cause, or indeed a warrant?

My understanding is ICE can detain anyone they suspect of being an illegal alien. Have you ever been detained before? It feels an awful lot like being arrested, you even get placed in handcuffs.

Detaining someone and arresting someone basically look like the exact same action, they aren't though. Best thing to do is just shut your mouth, cooperate with the Officer's directions and not even try and argue about it. Arguing just makes the situation worse, you aren't going to win the argument anyways so there isn't even a point in trying to.

Proving that ICE officers targeted someone based on their race would basically be impossible. Not saying the optics aren't what they are, but optics and legal aren't the same thing.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

My understanding is ICE can detain anyone they suspect of being an illegal alien. Have you ever been detained before? It feels an awful lot like being arrested, you even get placed in handcuffs.

Detaining someone and arresting someone basically look like the exact same action, they aren't though. Best thing to do is just shut your mouth, cooperate with the Officer's directions and not even try and argue about it. Arguing just makes the situation worse, you aren't going to win the argument anyways so there isn't even a point in trying to.

Proving that ICE officers targeted someone based on their race would basically be impossible. Not saying the optics aren't what they are, but optics and legal aren't the same thing.

You are bang on. As in most instances with LEO/ citizen interactions, they would go without violence or verbal attacks. However, most Law Enforcement are pretty adept in letting perps talk themselves into tickets and arrest. They simply have to stand there. Perps will provide their own reasons for intervention.