A Deeply Fractured US

[The Bread Guy]

Close. The new Black Panthers protesting while being strapped. It's their legal right, but it'll only take an ND to light a fire.

Better or worse than armed, masked folks just standing in state legislatures during Covid?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Unfortunately many/most illegal aliens are people of colour. There are at least 11 million illegal aliens in the United States. Vast majority (90%) are people of colour from a few select regions.

It's not really shocking ICE would target people of colour for immigration enforcement operations where that's where the problem is.

As for the women. They were naive and stupid to get in to it with the ICE agents. They may have felt they were right but confronting individuals that are armed is never smart, doesn't matter if it's criminals, police, or anyone for that matter. People seem to think being right is more important than self-preservation. Congratulations, you were right... you're also now dead.

I felt a tremendous sense of grief and sadness for the wife who had gotten in to a heated argument with ICE agents. The video of her reaction after her wife got shot in the face was telling. Her emotions led her to make some really poor decisions.

Race can surely not be sufficient justification to detain someone without any other cause, or indeed a warrant?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The party lineage is a fact, but it's not really the same membership. Southern Democrats migrated to being southern Republicans. And political realignment in the southern states was mostly over economic/fiscal policies, not racial ones. Along the way, the actual kinds of people who were southern Democrats became mostly extinct.

Your point is salient and true. However, I think your on a level of about 2% of the population. The other 98% won't ever come close to considering your point. Emotional animals react to immediate action. There is little involved in their response except instinct.

 

[Lumber]

Your point is salient and true. However, I think your on a level of about 2% of the population. The other 98% won't ever come close to considering your point. Emotional animals react to immediate action. There is little involved in their response except instinct.

More than 2% of the US population wouldn't be able to tell you when the civil war was or what it was all about, so I think your numbers are a bit off. 98% of the population isn't going to look at anything the Democrats are doing and think "Geeze, first the civil war, then segregation, and now this?!"

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Better or worse than armed, masked folks just standing in state legislatures during Covid?

Not getting your point. I just stated a verifiable fact about armed Black Panthers. I don't understand your tie in.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Race can surely not be sufficient justification to detain someone without any other cause, or indeed a warrant?

My understanding is ICE can detain anyone they suspect of being an illegal alien. Have you ever been detained before? It feels an awful lot like being arrested, you even get placed in handcuffs.

Detaining someone and arresting someone basically look like the exact same action, they aren't though. Best thing to do is just shut your mouth, cooperate with the Officer's directions and not even try and argue about it. Arguing just makes the situation worse, you aren't going to win the argument anyways so there isn't even a point in trying to.

Proving that ICE officers targeted someone based on their race would basically be impossible. Not saying the optics aren't what they are, but optics and legal aren't the same thing.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

My understanding is ICE can detain anyone they suspect of being an illegal alien. Have you ever been detained before? It feels an awful lot like being arrested, you even get placed in handcuffs.

Detaining someone and arresting someone basically look like the exact same action, they aren't though. Best thing to do is just shut your mouth, cooperate with the Officer's directions and not even try and argue about it. Arguing just makes the situation worse, you aren't going to win the argument anyways so there isn't even a point in trying to.

Proving that ICE officers targeted someone based on their race would basically be impossible. Not saying the optics aren't what they are, but optics and legal aren't the same thing.

You are bang on. As in most instances with LEO/ citizen interactions, they would go without violence or verbal attacks. However, most Law Enforcement are pretty adept in letting perps talk themselves into tickets and arrest. They simply have to stand there. Perps will provide their own reasons for intervention.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It's not really shocking ICE would target people of colour for immigration enforcement operations where that's where the problem is.

Mainly who they're targeting are people with criminal convictions and associations. ("Mainly" doesn't mean "all".) That's part of what I characterize as their tendency/instinct to wrongfoot their opponents. Defending the due process of people convicted of violent crimes and in the US illegally is a hard sell; obstructing due process from being carried out is harder. People are willing to say neo-Nazis have it coming for words and gestures. Imagine how some feel about violent criminals.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Your point is salient and true. However, I think your on a level of about 2% of the population. The other 98% won't ever come close to considering your point. Emotional animals react to immediate action. There is little involved in their response except instinct.

Much higher than 2%, but sure, some people just go with what they think are gotchas. Just look at the stream of social media posts people put up.

 

[Navy_Pete]

An obvious question: why isn't this happening to the same degree in any of the other 49 states?

Why are they in Minnesota anyway? There are other states with much larger illegal immigrants population, are they not there because they are mostly red?

Wouldn't be surprised if Tim Walz being governor doesn't have something to do with it, as Trump seems to be petty enough to invade Greenland because he's made that a private society in Norway didn't give him a Nobel prize, is bigly mad at the government of Norway, and probably can't tell the difference anymore with them and Denmark (if he ever knew it was different).

 

[HavokFour]

Why are they in Minnesota anyway? There are other states with much larger illegal immigrants population, are they not there because they are mostly red?

Wouldn't be surprised if Tim Walz being governor doesn't have something to do with it, as Trump seems to be petty enough to invade Greenland because he's made that a private society in Norway didn't give him a Nobel prize, is bigly mad at the government of Norway, and probably can't tell the difference anymore with them and Denmark (if he ever knew it was different).

Certainly looks like political retaliation. This is about a week out of date now, since it's closer to 3000+.

 

[Good2Golf]

Wouldn't be surprised if Tim Walz being governor doesn't have something to do with it, as Trump seems to be petty enough to invade Greenland because he's made that a private society in Norway didn't give him a Nobel prize, is bigly mad at the government of Norway, and probably can't tell the difference anymore with them and Denmark (if he ever knew it was different).

You mean Iceland?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Why are they in Minnesota anyway? There are other states with much larger illegal immigrants population, are they not there because they are mostly red?

Wouldn't be surprised if Tim Walz being governor doesn't have something to do with it, as Trump seems to be petty enough to invade Greenland because he's made that a private society in Norway didn't give him a Nobel prize, is bigly mad at the government of Norway, and probably can't tell the difference anymore with them and Denmark (if he ever knew it was different).

The administration is often petty and provocative. Unfortunately, authorities have a lot of laws to enforce and limited resources, and the right to make choices about who they're going to go after.

 

[ytz]

The signal I’m seeing is Trump blatantly pandering to the military at a ‘bread and circuses’ level. He’s never honoured service or sacrifice and certainly hasn’t started now. So why does he suddenly care about the army navy game?

Makes sense though. It's the ultimate destination of the "Thank you for your service" culture.

 

[ytz]

Wouldn't be surprised if Tim Walz being governor doesn't have something to do with it, as Trump seems to be petty enough to invade Greenland because he's made that a private society in Norway didn't give him a Nobel prize, is bigly mad at the government of Norway, and probably can't tell the difference anymore with them and Denmark (if he ever knew it was different).

It's actually a very Third World mindset. In a lot of corrupt third world countries institutions are seen as extensions of elites or powerful actors. They aren't seen as independent. Not a surprise the guy who spent his whole life doing a bunch of shady real estate deals has no capacity to understand institutional independence in high trust societies. He just can't imagine that the Norwegian government doesn't direct the Nobel Foundation.

 

[Czech_pivo]

“By tonnage, more commercial vessels were built by China’s state-owned Shipbuilding Corporation in 2024 than the United States has managed to construct in total in the 80 years since the end of World War II.“
@ytz
That is unreal to read.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Why are they in Minnesota anyway? There are other states with much larger illegal immigrants population, are they not there because they are mostly red?

Wouldn't be surprised if Tim Walz being governor doesn't have something to do with it, as Trump seems to be petty enough to invade Greenland because he's made that a private society in Norway didn't give him a Nobel prize, is bigly mad at the government of Norway, and probably can't tell the difference anymore with them and Denmark (if he ever knew it was different).

They are in plenty of red states also.

Texas and Florida have the highest arrest rates for all states.

You don’t hear about other places much because many are cooperating with ICE.

 

[ytz]

“By tonnage, more commercial vessels were built by China’s state-owned Shipbuilding Corporation in 2024 than the United States has managed to construct in total in the 80 years since the end of World War II.“
@ytz
That is unreal to read.

I figure the ramping up of their culture wars is because they've decided they can't fight China. Otherwise, they would unify against the external threat.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I figure the ramping up of their culture wars is because they've decided they can't fight China. Otherwise, they would unify against the external threat.

Who is ‘they’?

 

[Furniture]

“By tonnage, more commercial vessels were built by China’s state-owned Shipbuilding Corporation in 2024 than the United States has managed to construct in total in the 80 years since the end of World War II.“
@ytz
That is unreal to read.

While interesting, it's not really a useful data point.

The West hasn't been in the business of building or crewing freighters in a very long time. It's a lot cheaper to build off-shore, crew from off-shore, and register off-shore.

It's a lot easier to build ships cheap in a place where people who complain about work conditions can be brought into line by having their family imprisoned.