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Airfield defence role for PRes? (From: "Re-Royalization")

dimsum

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Happy Guy said:
RCAF is trying to learn and retain a semblance of Army fighting skills and there is still no dedicated base defence unit like the RAF Regt.

<tangent>

We have fighters and other expensive hardware in bases and deployed in QRAs.  Who provides the security for that? 

Note:  I'm not advocating for the start-up of an "RAF Regt" or "RAAF Airfield Defence Guards".

</tangent>
 

Edward Campbell

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Dimsum said:
<tangent>

We have fighters and other expensive hardware in bases and deployed in QRAs.  Who provides the security for that? 

Note:  I'm not advocating for the start-up of an "RAF Regt" or "RAAF Airfield Defence Guards".

</tangent>


Think Gulf War I in Qatar: we used regular Canadian infantry to defend the airfield. It's a legitimate task for infantry and air defence artillery.
 

OldSolduer

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E.R. Campbell said:
Think Gulf War I in Qatar: we used regular Canadian infantry to defend the airfield. It's a legitimate task for infantry and air defence artillery.
Agreed and I'm sure that there are enough PRes troops who would be interested in a tasking like this.

Sheep Dog AT said:
Or outsourced to private American companies.  :D

Sadly.....
 

Edward Campbell

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Hamish Seggie said:
Agreed and I'm sure that there are enough PRes troops who would be interested in a tasking like this.

Sadly.....


And I think airfield defence is a task for which a regional battalion could train so that it could have a platoon ready to go on short notice (say 10 days) and the rest of a company ready in another 20 days. And I suspect the equipment table for such a task is manageable for a reserve unit.
 

OldSolduer

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E.R. Campbell said:
And I think airfield defence is a task for which a regional battalion could train so that it could have a platoon ready to go on short notice (say 10 days) and the rest of a company ready in another 20 days. And I suspect the equipment table for such a task is manageable for a reserve unit.

Thank you Mr Campbell. It`s a task the Army has not thought of AFAIK. We did send a platoon way back when to Mirage....2004 IIRC.
 

medicineman

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I remember doing AAG medicals on a lot of Naval Reservists that were with Port Security who did time in Khandahar as part of the A/F Security Force there.  I get the impression that "they" get whoever "they" can to fill the slots for this sort of thing - be they Reg Force/P Res infantry, Naval Reservists, MP's, or whoever can be rustled up.

MM
 

dimsum

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E.R. Campbell said:
And I think airfield defence is a task for which a regional battalion could train so that it could have a platoon ready to go on short notice (say 10 days) and the rest of a company ready in another 20 days. And I suspect the equipment table for such a task is manageable for a reserve unit.

Thing is, could a PRes Bn be tasked at short notice though?  Say, if a mission happened tomorrow and C-17s were to roll into place X, one of the first units to deploy ahead of the first plane would be the Airfield Defence pers. 
 

FJAG

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Dimsum said:
Thing is, could a PRes Bn be tasked at short notice though?  Say, if a mission happened tomorrow and C-17s were to roll into place X, one of the first units to deploy ahead of the first plane would be the Airfield Defence pers.

Easy fix.

Send in a Reg force element and seven days later rotate them out for their P Res replacements who have the long term task.

These are not issues that are difficult to solve. The problem is that there is very little will within the Reg F military establishment to assign standing tasks to P Res elements based on the fiction that they are not reliable and that you can't count on volunteers to show up when needed and that the administration to get them deployed takes too long. All self-inflicted wounds.

The power to call up reservists exists in the NDA but we've developed a culture within the government and especially the DND hierarchy to not use that power; this leaves us with a tradition of calling for individual volunteers from the P Res for each and every op or tasking -- basically a system that fosters uncertainty and so called unreliability.

I don't point at the US NG as THE model to replicate but it does show that one can have a low cost stand-by force that can be counted on to be there when a surge capability is needed.

But, I'm rambling again. If I don't watch out I'll be blithering on about why do we have Reg F armoured and artillery regiments when we only use them every half century? Wouldn't these be perfectly appropriate tasks to give to the reserves?

:bla-bla:

:cheers:
 

daftandbarmy

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FJAG said:
Easy fix.

Send in a Reg force element and seven days later rotate them out for their P Res replacements who have the long term task.

These are not issues that are difficult to solve. The problem is that there is very little will within the Reg F military establishment to assign standing tasks to P Res elements based on the fiction that they are not reliable and that you can't count on volunteers to show up when needed and that the administration to get them deployed takes too long. All self-inflicted wounds.

The power to call up reservists exists in the NDA but we've developed a culture within the government and especially the DND hierarchy to not use that power; this leaves us with a tradition of calling for individual volunteers from the P Res for each and every op or tasking -- basically a system that fosters uncertainty and so called unreliability.

I don't point at the US NG as THE model to replicate but it does show that one can have a low cost stand-by force that can be counted on to be there when a surge capability is needed.

But, I'm rambling again. If I don't watch out I'll be blithering on about why do we have Reg F armoured and artillery regiments when we only use them every half century? Wouldn't these be perfectly appropriate tasks to give to the reserves?

:bla-bla:

:cheers:

The other 'fiction' is that Reservists can't deploy because of full time jobs and family.

80% of my unit are kids at school, or employed in a variety of temporary/ low wage jobs.

Most would fight tooth and nail for a Class B or C position, doing anything.
 

George Wallace

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FJAG said:
Easy fix.

Send in a Reg force element and seven days later rotate them out for their P Res replacements who have the long term task.

These are not issues that are difficult to solve. The problem is that there is very little will within the Reg F military establishment to assign standing tasks to P Res elements based on the fiction that they are not reliable and that you can't count on volunteers to show up when needed and that the administration to get them deployed takes too long. All self-inflicted wounds.

The power to call up reservists exists in the NDA but we've developed a culture within the government and especially the DND hierarchy to not use that power; this leaves us with a tradition of calling for individual volunteers from the P Res for each and every op or tasking -- basically a system that fosters uncertainty and so called unreliability.

I don't point at the US NG as THE model to replicate but it does show that one can have a low cost stand-by force that can be counted on to be there when a surge capability is needed.

But, I'm rambling again. If I don't watch out I'll be blithering on about why do we have Reg F armoured and artillery regiments when we only use them every half century? Wouldn't these be perfectly appropriate tasks to give to the reserves?

:bla-bla:

:cheers:

Or perhaps create a "DART" type Class B for Reservists to fill to supplement Reg Force QRF
 

cupper

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Bring in legislation that will protect a reservist's job when called up, and I suspect you will get a lot of those members who have full time jobs making themselves available as well.
 

RedcapCrusader

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cupper said:
Bring in legislation that will protect a reservist's job when called up, and I suspect you will get a lot of those members who have full time jobs making themselves available as well.

That already exists in most provinces and territories...

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/business-reservist-support/job-protection-legislation.page

I work full-time, the issue is not that my job isn't protected but whether or not it is financially feasible for me to deploy. Those with wives and children will be more hard pressed, especially in Alberta where wages and salaries are much higher than the norm and a CAF salary may not always be enough. Therefore, I think most simply choose not to because of their finances.
 

mariomike

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cupper said:
Bring in legislation that will protect a reservist's job when called up, and I suspect you will get a lot of those members who have full time jobs making themselves available as well.

We had job and seniority protection written into our collective agreement: "Leave of absence shall be granted to employees to serve in the Armed Forces during hostilities or during a time of war as declared by the Government of Canada. Seniority will accumulate during such leave."

But, we had no protection for loss of income. Benefits and pension would also be affected. Not sure how many would volunteer to go.

We also have a 20-page  "Reservists Job Protection Superthread".

 

daftandbarmy

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cupper said:
Bring in legislation that will protect a reservist's job when called up, and I suspect you will get a lot of those members who have full time jobs making themselves available as well.

If you can let soldiers know far enough in advance that they will be going on a high readiness cycle, for a specific period of time at the same time of year, many could work that into their schedules. If this were to happen according to a regular routine, people can work their lives and occupations around it.

However, if it's all ad hoc/ on again off again... it will collapse like a house of cheap cards.

 

dapaterson

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As long as we are paying ~68000 people to be ready 24/7, I do not understand the ongoing desire to offload a rapid reaction task to those who are not compensated for that level of readiness.  Reserves are not intended as a QRF.  If we are to pay roughly 5000 Reg F infantrymen, I'd hope we can pull together a company of 150 for a rapid deployment to hold an airfield.  Ramp up the Reserves for follow-up, certainly; but first out the door should be those paid to be ready.
 

MilEME09

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If we are going to talk about air field defense, shouldn't we have Anti-aircraft weapons in our inventory? last I checked on the DWAN and Canadian Defense review we are still atleast 5-7 years out on even the initial phases of procuring new ground based air defense systems. That said perhaps having a platoon level sub-unit in the arty for air defense, with Pres AD regiments for augmentation would be the right way to go. Oh and buy MANPAD's and have every trade trained how to use them.
 

Underway

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Assuming we are operating on our own and not with allies which NEVER happens.... 

Immediate (aka: 5 min ago) AF security you would send someone from CANSOFCOM.  JTF probably would provide their own security for their own birds to start, or CSOR would be involved.  JTF often provide their own security as they traditionally don't trust anyone else.  It all depends on the mission and where. 

For a week or so notice any of the Infantry Btn's can fill the shoes. 

For longer term with more lead time or multiple rotations you could issue a class C.  Plenty of NAVRES sailors provided base security in KAF and with the SOF units (as I was told they didn't have to "relearn" anything that was taught them by the SOF guys, blank slates and all, that unlike combat arms PRES), any combat arms PRES units like in Camp Nathan Smith. 

Class C's for these sort of tours that get you a medal are gold to PRES.  They love them, get a good paycheck, break from school, work, life etc...and get a shinny to show off in the mess.  For the platoon sized org that is required for airbase security you could probably get Class C's for an infinite amount of time.  During the heydays of Afghanistan it never seemed like we were ever short of reservists volunteering to help out.

We can't do AAW defence for airfields aside from MANPADS AFAIK anymore.
 

daftandbarmy

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My battalion defended RAF Greenham Common as part of a Brigade tasking for several weeks.

Our main task was to keep these 'women' from being killed by the US Air Force security team defending the site where they had stored the nuclear tipped cruise missiles. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenham_Common_Women%27s_Peace_Camp

Of course, being activists, they were busy trying to squirm their way through the concertina on a regular basis, VC sapper-like, to cause the US troops to do just that in front of the world press.

We did not have weapons beyond pick axe handles, but in all other respects we were an airfield defense battalion working closely with the RAF Regiment, amongst others.

It was boring. Really, really boring and I am sure that a contracted civilian agency of some kind could have done the majority of the work. We hated it, of course.

Reserves doing this job? Not unless you have them on a Class B or C contract IMHO.
 

Colin Parkinson

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At least one Reserve Arty unit should be tasked with AD as a role, give them simulators for the missile systems and some basic smaller calibre AD guns to practice on and keep interest up. Also create positions where you can send someone overseas to work with an allied AD unit for a period. It would be great that the Reserve AD unit be near a Regular Force Artillery unit also with a AD troop so they can work together. 
 
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