Airfield defence role for PRes? (From: "Re-Royalization")

[Loachman]

Unfortunately, we apparently can't even afford to give them regular guns, let alone re-establish another role.

 

[Harris]

Before we look at giving Pres Units another role, how about we sort out the basics first?  For example there are no C6's in Newfoundland.  None.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

At least one Reserve Arty unit should be tasked with AD as a role, give them simulators for the missile systems and some basic smaller calibre AD guns to practice on and keep interest up. Also create positions where you can send someone overseas to work with an allied AD unit for a period. It would be great that the Reserve AD unit be near a Regular Force Artillery unit also with a AD troop so they can work together.

Already been tried. Reserve Bird Gunners in Pembroke. Didn't work.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Recceguy, I am afraid to ask why, but why?

Harris, since we don't have guns either, maybe a good time to re-roll them into something we may need?

 

[Harris]

Don't get me wrong, if a re-role is necessary, I'm good with it.  What I fear is that if we can't even get the basics right equipment wise, how would making a Unit re-role help?  Still not likely to get the proper equipment.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Recceguy, I am afraid to ask why, but why?

Harris, since we don't have guns either, maybe a good time to re-roll them into something we may need?

I'm not sure. Was on deployment with one of them and he was saying there was no real and\ or usable equipment, the relationship with the Arty in Pet was near non existent, and a lot of external interference.

Can't vouch, but that's what I recall being told.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

sounds quite believable  :facepalm: Thanks

 

[dapaterson]

There were three Res AD units; Alberta, Ontario and Quebec.  With the divestment of our AD systems (other than CF-18s, missiles on frigates, and the ever-popular all-arms air defence (aka spray wildly with whatever you've got on hand)) those three units were re-roled to artillery.

With the C3 howizters now following the MLVW/LSVW self-divestment program, it's unclear what the future holds for Reserve artillery units.

 

[MilEME09]

With the C3 howizters now following the MLVW/LSVW self-divestment program, it's unclear what the future holds for Reserve artillery units.

As far as I know the LG-1 is still in use, as the plan still is to train reserve weapons techs on them. that said those plans change atleast once a month so god only knows whats going on any more

 

[GnyHwy]

I don't think anyone is denying the requirement for an AD capability.

The bigger question is where does it stack up against the 200+ other projects that are competing for the same money... long range ground to ground missiles would also fall into this quagmire.

From what I understand the Arty School is maintaining a very small set of persons that are expected to keep up on the technology and procedures or our allies.  Probably the best they can do given other competing priorities.

Asking our Res F and/or other arms to take on a SHORAD task is probably a huge stretch, even in the best of circumstances.  Even if we hand selected Reg F persons, they would probably have massive difficulties.  I don't think it is a simple as looking or listening for tiny black dots in the sky and then shooting at them.

That all said, we should get an MRR in the next couple years, and it should be better than this! 
At least we will be capable of anticipating the pain!!! :cheers:

 

[FJAG]

Asking our Res F and/or other arms to take on a SHORAD task is probably a huge stretch, even in the best of circumstances.  Even if we hand selected Reg F persons, they would probably have massive difficulties.  I don't think it is a simple as looking or listening for tiny black dots in the sky and then shooting at them.

In the eighties the CIA provided stingers to the mujahideen to shoot down Russian helicopters and such. If they could make that work why couldn't we get a bunch of kids already fluent in computer games to learn to operate missiles?

I keep saying it over and over: it isn't the lack of talent, it's a lack of will within the Reg F to make things work with the PRes. It's all about protecting Reg F PYs.

:cheers:

 

[MilEME09]

I keep saying it over and over: it isn't the lack of talent, it's a lack of will within the Reg F to make things work with the PRes. It's all about protecting Reg F PYs.

:cheers:

always has been, and always will be the case IMO, to few people who desire change actually are in positions to make change

 

[RedcapCrusader]

I'm not sure. Was on deployment with one of them and he was saying there was no real and\ or usable equipment, the relationship with the Arty in Pet was near non existent, and a lot of external interference.

Can't vouch, but that's what I recall being told.

There was also AD in Lethbridge. Same fate. As soon as they started getting rid of the ADATS, they changed over to Field Arty.

 

[GnyHwy]

It's all about protecting Reg F PYs.

:cheers:

I don't agree with that.  The Res have ample PYs.  What we don't have is the money to employ them. 

I do agree that a shooter could be trained pretty easily (any open source stats on Mujahideen successes?).  Also, shooting lumbering heavy helicopters may not be a good comparison for our potential problems.

Lastly, the planning, coordination, deconfliction, ROE and safety are whole other problems that aren't resolved on a 1 week operator course.

:cheers:

 

[blacktriangle]

In the eighties the CIA provided stingers to the mujahideen to shoot down Russian helicopters and such. If they could make that work why couldn't we get a bunch of kids already fluent in computer games to learn to operate missiles?

I keep saying it over and over: it isn't the lack of talent, it's a lack of will within the Reg F to make things work with the PRes. It's all about protecting Reg F PYs.

:cheers:

Do we really have to make this a Reg vs Res thing? This is not a cap badge or res/reg problem. The problem is our lack of any credible AD system, and the lack of political/military will to procure one.

 

[Ostrozac]

As far as I know the LG-1 is still in use, as the plan still is to train reserve weapons techs on them. that said those plans change atleast once a month so god only knows whats going on any more

And the LG-1 doesn't exactly have a reputation as the most robust weapons system in the world. Specifically, it doesn't seem to enjoy the winter that much. And Canada has a lot of winter.

There is a project for a future indirect fire capability -- but like most projects it is late, vague on the deliverables, and the impact on the reserve force is unknown.  The reserve component will probably either be tacked on at the absolute last minute, like the Engineers Corps recently did with their proposed reserve Geomatic and Bridging capability, or not included at all, as with the most recent overarching plan for the Armoured Corps.

 

[jollyjacktar]

There was also AD in Lethbridge. Same fate. As soon as they started getting rid of the ADATS, they changed over back to Field Arty.

That was my Militia Battery, 20th Ind. Fd Bty that was re-roled.  The flirting with the AD role came after my time there and was not a success.  It's not the first time the Militia were bird gunners.  When my dad came back from  overseas to Calgary after the war he stayed active in the Militia.  The had three batteries in operation at the same time consisting one each of field, anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.

 

[jollyjacktar]

And the LG-1 doesn't exactly have a reputation as the most robust weapons system in the world. Specifically, it doesn't seem to enjoy the winter that much. And Canada has a lot of winter.

I don't know, they never gave us any trouble in winter shoots in Suffield.  And the system has it's roots back to the second world war.  That is longer than it's predecessors the 25 pdr, or 18 pdr.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

That was my Militia Battery, 20th Ind. Fd Bty that was re-roled.  The flirting with the AD role came after my time there and was not a success.  It's not the first time the Militia were bird gunners.  When my dad came back from  overseas to Calgary after the war he stayed active in the Militia.  The had three batteries in operation at the same time consisting one each of field, anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.

Interesting, I had no idea. Thanks!

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

In the eighties the CIA provided stingers to the mujahideen to shoot down Russian helicopters and such. If they could make that work why couldn't we get a bunch of kids already fluent in computer games to learn to operate missiles?

I keep saying it over and over: it isn't the lack of talent, it's a lack of will within the Reg F to make things work with the PRes. It's all about protecting Reg F PYs.

:cheers:

The problem with this statement is that the "act" part of the AD system is the easy part, but the "sense" and "command" elements are the difficult part. While we could easily teach reservists to shoot a stinger it is infinitely harder to train someone in effective aircract recce, hostile act criteria, airspace coordination (as this is a critical element of the shooter aspect of AD), and planning. With limited training days I would suggest that the integration of this capability into any sort of complex multinational operation that involved Air, Ground, and Naval assets, Tactical data links, etc would be beyond their scope.

Also, for the crowd, if you are looking at an airfield air defence role for a GBAD (the proper acronym, as "AD" includes Air and Naval AD assets) system than MANPAD is definately not where you want to look for a capability. MANPADs are optimized for short range defence of manouevre units and generally speaking are used to engage helicopters and POSSIBLY a larger UAV that could be picked up with the mk 1 eyeball or a TA suite of some sort of the MANPAD. Even aircraft, because of the longer reach of their weapons (8-15 km vs a MANPADs 2-8km range) are likely out of a realistic target pack for those systems. That's why in the old days the MANPADs were in the reserves... to provide the integral AD assets to a Bde. If you want an airfield air defence task than you would be better to go with a Gun/C-RAM system more akin to the twin 35mm or the CWIS to protect the airfield against munitions or a larger SHORAD asset with longer range.