Allowances - Post Living Differential (PLD) [MERGED]

[markppcli]

2023 rates Edmonton loses marginally or gains marginally across the board (from 1 to 3%, except Privates)

Hmm where was my math wrong the ? 300 dollar rough increases while loosing 684 seems off?

 

[Furniture]

Yes. But I would argue they have been benefiting for years.

I'm guessing they won't care about the academic argument, and will only see that they take home less money.

I'm not saying thousands will up and quit, but we will likely lose some over this, and some of them will be people critical for CAF operations.

Between Edmonton, Halifax, and Victoria there are lots of people living in RHUs who are about to lose money come 1 Jul.

 

[Furniture]

This is what benefits can create now.
This is what happens when you tell someone in a field unit in Edmonton making PLD and LDA that they are getting posted out - huge drop in pay. This is what you call perverse incentives - when you create something intended to help the system but it ends up hindering things.

Edmonton has been bracing for this for years, as it was known that its PLD rate was a higher relative to other locations and in relation to the actual cost of living there. It's unfortunate that some of those soldiers are going to be on the outside of this policy.

I lost $1100 in allowances(PLD, SDA) when posted from Victoria to Trenton. It was not a pleasant experience...

 

[Infanteer]

I lost $1100 in allowances(PLD, SDA) when posted from Victoria to Trenton. It was not a pleasant experience...

Never fun - know plenty, including myself, who've taken some sort of cut in moving.

I'm wondering, based off the way that the new HA is spread between cities, if this new policy will reduce instances of these big pay drops between postings. Less turbulence will be helpful if it is the case.

 

[Eaglelord17]

This is what benefits can create now.
This is what happens when you tell someone in a field unit in Edmonton making PLD and LDA that they are getting posted out - huge drop in pay. This is what you call perverse incentives - when you create something intended to help the system but it ends up hindering things.

Edmonton has been bracing for this for years, as it was known that its PLD rate was a higher relative to other locations and in relation to the actual cost of living there. It's unfortunate that some of those soldiers are going to be on the outside of this policy.

That is true, however telling a PO1 or WO posted to Victoria/Esqumalt that they will only make slightly more than someone in Ottawa with a much higher cost of living isn’t going to go over well.

Many civilian jobs compensate for lower cost of living areas by paying less in those areas than they would in a more expensive area. The CAF just stopped doing that it looks like. Thats going to be a net negative at the upper levels of troops and might lead to a good amount of brain drain.

That 30 million saved I think is going to be a conservative number as there likely will be a lot of people eligible for retirement getting out pretty fast.

 

[brihard]

2023 rates Edmonton loses marginally or gains marginally across the board (from 1 to 3%, except Privates)

And bear in mind that that low single digit change is in the context of being at the same time as a pay raise that corresponds with about 14% inflation so far. So a significant pay cut in purchasing power terms. The loss of PLD in some cases, particularly Edmonton, basically mostly negates the economic increase. Troops will notice that. The fact that PLD has been allowed to remain horribly flawed for a long time won’t be a comfort to troops feeling the burn of inflation and now getting next to no salve. Maybe this is a case where a band aid needs to be ripped off, but it will probably do some damage to 1 CMBG.

 

[Furniture]

That is true, however telling a PO1 or WO posted to Victoria/Esqumalt that they will only make slightly more than someone in Ottawa with a much higher cost of living isn’t going to go over well.

Many civilian jobs compensate for lower cost of living areas by paying less in those areas than they would in a more expensive area. The CAF just stopped doing that it looks like. Thats going to be a net negative at the upper levels of troops and might lead to a good amount of brain drain.

That 30 million saved I think is going to be a conservative number as there likely will be a lot of people eligible for retirement getting out pretty fast.

Ottawa isn't much cheaper than Victoria, it's cheaper, but not dramatically. That was one of the flaws with PLD, the Jr. Pers posted to Ottawa got screwed with zero extra to off-set the cost of living.

 

[Underway]

That is true, however telling a PO1 or WO posted to Victoria/Esqumalt that they will only make slightly more than someone in Ottawa with a much higher cost of living isn’t going to go over well.

Ottawa isn't much cheaper than Victoria, it's cheaper, but not dramatically. That was one of the flaws with PLD, the Jr. Pers posted to Ottawa got screwed with zero extra to off-set the cost of living.

I just moved to Victoria from Ottawa this year. The cost of living is almost identical, I only notice a difference in gas really. Property is not too different frankly.

 

[Underway]

Created a completely new gmail account for this as I don't really want to deal with ppl getting access to my normal account.

CAF NCM PAY CALCULATOR 2023-24

There are likely errors as its a bit late. This is for ESQUIMALT and VICTORIA only. If you want to do the math for your own area then you'll need to go into the CFHD Website yourself and enter the place data for different pay scales into CFHD ALLOWANCES sheet. I wasn't going to try and cut and paste all of those in there.

For officers I didn't bother to add their pay sheets. That's a problem for another day as their entry programs are all over the place. Figure it out yourself!

There may be errors, its late, and I caught a few. But double check yourself.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't know....new challenges, new responsibility, different positions.

I think spelt more wrong.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Created a completely new gmail account for this as I don't really want to deal with ppl getting access to my normal account.

CAF NCM PAY CALCULATOR 2023-24

There are likely errors as its a bit late. This is for ESQUIMALT and VICTORIA only. If you want to do the math for your own area then you'll need to go into the CFHD Website yourself and enter the place data for different pay scales into CFHD ALLOWANCES sheet. I wasn't going to try and cut and paste all of those in there.

For officers I didn't bother to add their pay sheets. That's a problem for another day as their entry programs are all over the place. Figure it out yourself!

There may be errors, its late, and I caught a few. But double check yourself.

Thanks for doing this.

I'm in Aug 1 boat. I'm going to wait and see what my cheques actually look like and then make decisions.

 

[btrudy]

The aspect of these changes that boggles my mind the most is that it directly negatively impacts the most the people who are in the rank levels where we're already bleeding personnel the fastest. The missing middle is about to become a hell of a lot more missing. Especially in Halifax and Esquimalt.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The aspect of these changes that boggles my mind the most is that it directly negatively impacts the most the people who are in the rank levels where we're already bleeding personnel the fastest. The missing middle is about to become a hell of a lot more missing. Especially in Halifax and Esquimalt.

Yes. I too think this will be one of the unintended consequences. The fact that it takes 8-15 years to train that middle means that the CAF will have to adapt very quickly.

It will need to be about addressing the IPO model. Inputs go through a Process to create an Output. If the output (Ops, statutory and regulatory compliance, stewardship of resources etc) must remain constant, and the input (the missing middle) is reduced, then the process must be changed. The missing middle does a lot of unnecessary work, to meet the needs of a labour intensive, cumbersome, and wholly inefficient Process. That Process needs to be changed, and quickly.


Or we can, once again, reduce the outputs (Ops, stewardship) in order to defend against the need to change the Process.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This is nothing but a cut to pay and allowances masked as #helpingthetroops.

The worst part is Middle Management is being manipulated to go along with it.

Just thought I'd add #wearehiring
Love ex-Military as well .

 

[btrudy]

Yes. I too think this will be one of the unintended consequences. The fact that it takes 8-15 years to train that middle means that the CAF will have to adapt very quickly.

It will need to be about addressing the IPO model. Inputs go through a Process to create an Output. If the output (Ops, statutory and regulatory compliance, stewardship of resources etc) must remain constant, and the input (the missing middle) is reduced, then the process must be changed. The missing middle does a lot of unnecessary work, to meet the needs of a labour intensive, cumbersome, and wholly inefficient Process. That Process needs to be changed, and quickly.


Or we can, once again, reduce the outputs (Ops, stewardship) in order to defend against the need to change the Process.

But of course if you're going to be doing that, it also helps to have a bunch of experienced people to figure out what exactly it is that we're able to cut from our business model, what can be adapted to be more efficient, what needs to be kept, etc.

Unfortunately, they all just quit.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Unfortunately, they all just quit.

I hate that your probably right

 

[CountDC]

Which raises another point, why bother going up in rank if you’re home pay is effectively negligible? All this did was severely close the gap between the Cpl and MWO. All you’d have to do is some simple math and decide whether getting promoted into a higher pay bracket is worth losing on CFHD. Im sure people are doing the math already.

For people doing this don't forget the mess due increase that may be included. remember in the late 80s the poor new Sgt that came in to go over his new pay. So happy about the promotion until I showed him his new lower net pay due to the bump in tax bracket and mess dues. Felt like taking him to the mess and buying him a drink.

 

[Rifleman62]

Tin foil hat: Is this a cunning plan?

My granddaughter, new Cpl Clk in Edm, living off base. My grandson, MCpl in Kingston living off base, and my son in law, MWO Kingston, paying a mtge who is ready to retire.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

This follows a familiar trend.

The CAF has demonstrated yet again that it only cares about recruitment and not about retention.

This is essentially an enticement for fresh meat, at the expense of the meat that's already in the freezer.

I crunched the numbers for myself if I were still in.

It would have been a gross loss of $9600.00 in income from pay and allowances. That's substantial.

 

[Milhouser911]

I've been out for about 4 years now after 17 years as a supply tech, and I'd like to say this:

Pay isn't the problem, at least in wog-land. A Cpl 4 without PLD or LDA makes more than the median Canadian HOUSEHOLD income, and after seeing what compensation is like civvie-side, the CAF is overpaid quite substantially for the amount of work, effort, and risk involved.

My personal story with this is that I got out (3B) and re-trained as a nurse. After 2 years of college, where I was top 8 in a class of 110, if I worked full-time in a hospital (more stressful than anything I did in the CAF, and that includes 2 Afgh trips) physically and personally responsible for keeping people alive, when I capped out after 12 years, I'd make between Pte 3 and Cpl 1.

I think the focus is on pay because the leadership is so broken that it's the only lever anyone is willing to pull. Everything else is difficult and exposes the multitude of serious issues that haunt the CAF from top to bottom.

So enjoy being overpaid, underworked, and poorly led. I'd bet real money that this will have zero effect on retention, and will in fact encourage the malingerers to stick around.

I'd like to say that you couldn't pay me enough to go back to the shit units and shit leadership I worked for during my tenure, but $15k and 3 weeks vacation would make me consider it, even if I don't think I could go through with it.