Armoured Light Recce Vehicle for PRes Armd? (Merged splits from LAV III MGS and from TAPV)

[Colin Parkinson]

After all these years you are still an optimist! A suitable doctrine and role has been more like a bucket of gold at the end of the rainbow, over the last decade. While I totally agree with you in one sense, I wonder if waiting for the definitions without a firm timeline for them is a waste of time. We have a lot of people with recent combat experience and a good idea of the range of current and potential threats we will face over the next 20 years. You can also plan on never having enough money and politicians changing the goalposts at a whim.

I know the lack of equipment held by the Militia Armoured units influenced my choice of trades and I know quite a few others that used the same consideration. Lack of equipment to train on effects retention.

 

[TCBF]

- FALLEX 88: a whole bunch of 'Flyovers' exercise the REFORGER bridge and flush out 4 CMBG.  Recce Sqn, 8CH(PL) eventually gets a dozen... Reserve Artillerymen surplus to  W Bty.  No Crewmen, though, they were busy walloping pots someplace.  Post Ex, I found a few Res Crewmen outside our HQ building.  "How do we go with Recce Sqn next time !??!!?? "  they asked.  "Join the Artillery Reserves!" I said.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

In 86 they sent me to 1 Service Bat. Actually I really enjoyed it, the NCO's were really good and it certainly changed my perception of the Svc Bat, at that time I would say that 70% plus of the staff were ex-combat arms. So thee is some good that comes from cross pollination.

 

[tango22a]

Well I'll set myself up for a royal ream job and suggest a variant of  the XM800T with rubber band tracks.front engine  and a 4-5 man crew with rear exit as in Merkava.
Mind you, its not state of the art but should be do-able.

tango22a

 

[George Wallace]

First problem I see is the Rubber Band Tracks.  They have not received high praise on any of the testing we have done to date.....except for ideal conditions.  They are quiet, but really can't take the beating that 'normal' track takes.

 

[McG]

First problem I see is the Rubber Band Tracks.  They have not received high praise on any of the testing we have done to date.....except for ideal conditions.  They are quiet, but really can't take the beating that 'normal' track takes.

Rubber tracks have moved beyond testing.  They are the norm for deployed TLAV right now, and the other week I saw ADATS riding about with them.

 

[dapaterson]

We still need to start with a role:  role first, equipment to meet it second (and in this case, where different units could get different roles, equipment may vary).

As well, who will maintain these vehicles?  Crewmen like to drive their vehicles hard; someone needs to be there to bring them back to running order afterwards.  Where will soliders train?  The number of training areas large enough are few.

 

[Franko]

Show up on a Friday, sign for RCD "cars" and go break them all!  Very simple stuff.

We have no vehicles in Meaford. Also, the budget for said broken vehicles would come out of the reserve unit's coffers now wouldn't they? Know the price on an SLS cable? There goes the budget.     

Rubber tracks have moved beyond testing.  They are the norm for deployed TLAV right now, and the other week I saw ADATS riding about with them.

The rubber tracks are fine for sunshine and ideal conditions. They either break in half or fall off in winter/ icing conditions. Seen it too many times.

Regards

 

[Kat Stevens]

I can see the meeting on doctrine vs equipment going something like this:

Bill: Ted, while I agree that, in time, our band will be most triumphant. The truth is, Wyld Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar.
Ted: Yes, Bill. But, I do not believe we will get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video.
Bill: Ted, it's pointless to have a triumphant video before we even have decent instruments.
Ted: Well, how can we have decent instruments when we don't really even know how to play?
Bill: That is why we NEED Eddie Van Halen!
Ted: And THAT is why we need a triumphant video.
Bill, Ted: EXCELLENT!
[air guitar)

 

[dapaterson]

I can see the meeting on doctrine vs equipment going something like this:

Bill: Ted, while I agree that, in time, our band will be most triumphant. The truth is, Wyld Stallyns will never be a super band until we have Eddie Van Halen on guitar.
Ted: Yes, Bill. But, I do not believe we will get Eddie Van Halen until we have a triumphant video.
Bill: Ted, it's pointless to have a triumphant video before we even have decent instruments.
Ted: Well, how can we have decent instruments when we don't really even know how to play?
Bill: That is why we NEED Eddie Van Halen!
Ted: And THAT is why we need a triumphant video.
Bill, Ted: EXCELLENT!
[air guitar)

So you're suggesting we re-role all the Res Armd units to Heavy Metal bands?

Therefore, we'll also have to increase the size of the medical units to handle the after effects of increased interaction with groupies.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Pool vehicles and 'borrowing' from out Reg counterparts was and will be a total fiasco that will deprive everyone of time, money and training. It didn't work before and it still won't. Forget that horse in the wadi and move on.

Forget tracks and fighting the Russians. Noch ein toter gaul.

Outlying units, away from large training areas and lacking huge maint orgs could be given dedicated Convoy Escort\ RAS\ QRF roles. These could be done on civie roads with G Wagons to train with. Given a defined role as this, with the proper support, these outlying units could well send formed sub units (2x3car patrols) for deployment, on a regular basis. Switching up, and training all unit pers on something like an RG-31 could easily be done at the Unit level during a full summer concentration. It's not far off what we do now, but cement us into it and make it our role and doctrine. The only thing stopping us from becoming the SMEs on something like this, is the bun fight that would result because the Corp would lose their pool of red headed step children for GDs and CTs.

 

[McG]

Outlying units, away from large training areas and lacking huge maint orgs could be given dedicated Convoy Escort\ RAS\ QRF roles. These could be done on civie roads with G Wagons to train with. Given a defined role as this, with the proper support, these outlying units could well send formed sub units (2x3car patrols) for deployment, on a regular basis. Switching up, and training all unit pers on something like an RG-31 could easily be done at the Unit level during a full summer concentration. It's not far off what we do now, but cement us into it and make it our role and doctrine. The only thing stopping us from becoming the SMEs on something like this, is the bun fight that would result because the Corp would lose their pool of red headed step children for GDs and CTs.

That, and there are not enough surplus RG-31 for giving away to reserve summer concentrations (let alone the pre-concentration driver & gunner training).

The CLS has stated that he will not go after getting million dollar vehicles for the reserves.  Perhaps it is time to acknowledge that any role dependent on a fighting vehicle platform is exclusive of the reserves. 

 

[dapaterson]

It's a pity LFRR never delivered real plans or resource requirements, as there had been millions in vote 5 earmarked for that.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

First problem I see is the Rubber Band Tracks.  They have not received high praise on any of the testing we have done to date.....except for ideal conditions.  They are quiet, but really can't take the beating that 'normal' track takes.

The rubber tracks are fine for sunshine and ideal conditions. They either break in half or fall off in winter/ icing conditions. Seen it too many times.
Regards

Also heard they pop off when you do a pivot turn in the sandbox too.....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That, and there are not enough surplus RG-31 for giving away to reserve summer concentrations (let alone the pre-concentration driver & gunner training).

The CLS has stated that he will not go after getting million dollar vehicles for the reserves.  Perhaps it is time to acknowledge that any role dependent on a fighting vehicle platform is exclusive of the reserves.

OK. Let's get out of the box. How long does it take armoured guys to figure out a new truck FFS. We're not asking for them in our TO&E. Just long enough to get qualified. The deploying pers can train on them before they leave. Just like everyone else does. Don't give it to us for concentration. We'll use our Gwagons for that. Or perhaps that's been what we've been talking about all along. Fuck you Reserves. We only need you as grunts and gate guards. Good thing we couldn't say anything when the Regs stole our Bisons eh? Let's get out of the weeds and leave the niggly little details to staff wienies. I'm looking for a role and doctrine here. If you're going to 'na, na can't have it' without offering any kind of alternative, I've got enough people already blowing smoke up my asshole.

 

[McG]

OK. Let's get out of the box. How long does it take armoured guys to figure out a new truck FFS. We're not asking for them in our TO&E. Just long enough to get qualified. The deploying pers can train on them before they leave.

We already complain about the length of time in "the road to war."  Having units who only learn the tools of their trade after getting onto this road will only make this worse (stretching out the time for work-up).

We may have pressed the whole CF into a situation where it is currently forced to learn many tools on the way out the door, but that is a dysfunctional process.  Really good drivers have learned their vehicles with several exercises of experience under belt.  Mechanical quirks that need special attention, tricks to extend performance, and the ways of living most effectively in the vehicle are not fully learned in this last second approach that we are currently stuck with.

Doing this permanently & intentionally by way of force design would be doing the reserves a disservice.

I'm looking for a role and doctrine here. If you're going to 'na, na can't have it' without offering any kind of alternative...

Perhaps you might be interested in a role where the equipment can be provided such that individual & collective training enable personnel to be employed within trade?  There are many more than just the 'grunts' that are being effectively employed in their own occupations.  In fact, the other two combat arms (Gunners & Engineers) are both being heavily employed within their own occupations  ... a fact enabled by these two arms being exposed to significant common equipment domestically between the reserves & regular force.

OK. Let's get out of the box.

Maybe getting outside the box requires looking for roles that don't simply try to fit what you've always been doing into the current fight.  Maybe it requires looking for capability deficiencies and identifying ways that reservists can fill that gap, or maybe it involves identifying niche capabilities that the regular force is struggling to force generate and identifying a more manpower effective way of sustainably filling the niche.

The Regular Force has had difficulties force generating mini-UAV Ops.  Maybe that is something a reserve unit or two or three could do.  We are bringing in a new persistent surveillance capability (towers & aerostats) that (maybe) could provide a role for another unit or two.

 

[George Wallace]

I think you have most closely answered the problem with this statement:

That, and there are not enough surplus RG-31 for giving away to reserve summer concentrations (let alone the pre-concentration driver & gunner training).

The CLS has stated that he will not go after getting million dollar vehicles for the reserves.  Perhaps it is time to acknowledge that any role dependent on a fighting vehicle platform is exclusive of the reserves. 

The solution of training on UAVs and other sophisticated Surv Suites is nice, but these are still multimillion dollar platforms.  Will the CLS permit "Reservists" to utilize them?

 

[McG]

Other capabilities based on million dollar equipments are being given to the reserves.  The critical thing is that these are small niche capabilities and the equipment fleets are relatively small.

There are plans to migrate ROWPU fully to the reserves.  The equipment is expensive, but there is not a lot of it.

As for mini-UAV, I would be surprised if Skylark is running anywhere near even a single million.

 

[tango22a]

Well I only got crisped a little around the edges. Reserves need both a vehicle and above all a ROLE ! Years ago, when I was young and more stupid, we used to go to Petawoowoo and use VIIICH Lynx and M113s during Milcons. Didn't have any trouble converting to a vehicle we only saw 2 or 3 times a year.

Maybe we should bring back a new LYNX variant....all the needed expertise in design is there. Only thing is that they would have to come with something to keep all the old RegF Recce soldiers from nabbing them back for themselves.

tango22a

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I don't care much what it is. They have to define it, give us ownership and let us get on with it. We're tired of holding the door open while others waltz through.

As far as the Arty and Engineers, they hold a vital interest in what goes on within their family, whether Reg or Reserve. Armoured, not so much.