Azerbaijani and Armenian military Clashes

[Humphrey Bogart]

The use of RPA's in this conflict has hopefully opened the eyes of some planners in Ottawa.  Air Defence is an essential capability and we may be in a World of hurt the next time we go hot in to a theatre.

Truthfully, some of this technology scares the absolute crap out of me. 

 

[YZT580]

doesn't seem to matter much whether you are dug in or not.  Most of the units destroyed were protected by earthen berms.  Drones are totally re-defining tactics and it won't matter who controls the sky unless you can defend against numerous small, manoeuvrable targets: low cost numbers will overwhelm high-tech.

 

[FJAG]

The use of RPA's in this conflict has hopefully opened the eyes of some planners in Ottawa.  Air Defence is an essential capability and we may be in a World of hurt the next time we go hot in to a theatre.

Truthfully, some of this technology scares the absolute crap out of me.

Doesn't it just gall you to realize that countries with a defence budget of 2 billion or so per year have more effective capabilities than we do?

:brickwall:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Doesn't it just gall you to realize that countries with a defence budget of 2 billion or so per year have more effective capabilities than we do?

:brickwall:

Yea but i bet you their diversity count is off and like no one has attended any Harassment and Diversity courses or other mandatory courses we require.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Video--Israeli IAI "Mini Harpy Loitering Munitions System" (suicide drones) apparently being used by Azerbaijan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBmhJ-jrzrc

Mark
Ottawa

 

[daftandbarmy]

Video--Israeli IAI "Mini Harpy Loitering Munitions System" (suicide drones) apparently being used by Azerbaijan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBmhJ-jrzrc

Mark
Ottawa

Very cool! Can we have a few dozen of those please?

While looking at that, I found this link. In 2018, it seems that someone predicted a 'draw' between the two:

Armenia vs. Azerbaijan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA3_aTkr-H4

 

[Donald H]

Very cool! Can we have a few dozen of those please?

While looking at that, I found this link. In 2018, it seems that someone predicted a 'draw' between the two:

Armenia vs. Azerbaijan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA3_aTkr-H4

A draw it likely will be because they are just proxies for the major powers. And M.A.D. is going to keep us safe for another 75 years if we're lucky.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

At :41 seconds right after the explosion you can see a drone cross over the screen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jZuNR0WSxY&feature=emb_logo

 

[Infanteer]

I'll offer a bit of a different point of view on what we're seeing.

The drone footage of Azeri kills of Armenian vehicles here indicates the "amateur" nature of the players in this conflict - at least with one side.  Sure most of the platforms are "dug in" with some earthen berms, but they are in the wide open with no overhead concealment or protection.  Watching 6 minutes of footage reveals a very low level of sophistication in defensive preparation.  The "tank plinking" hearkens back to the U.S. picking off Iraqi Divisions one AFV at a time in 1991.  In fact, a good dive into the history books reveals that this has been a constant of modern warfare since its inception in the First World War.  By 1917, anything that wasn't dug in and concealed from the air would be picked up by aerial observation and destroyed by fires (in this case, artillery barrages).

To me, this means that UAVs/UAS/RPS (whatever we want to go with) are not a revolutionary game changer, nor do they "scare the crap out of me."  They are simply the next step in the evolution of the reconnaissance bi-plane and its tactical role, and offer no more or no less than was offered in 1917.  And just like effective countermeasures are designed for the bi-plane, effective countermeasures for UAVs will undoubtedly ensure that offensive/defensive balance is achieved.

It goes to show - you can have a small defence budget and spend it on some neat Russian equipment, but if you don't know how to use it very well, it all ends up as scrap steel.  Materiel is relatively easy to procure and replace - professional warfighters are not.

 

[PuckChaser]

To me, this means that UAVs/UAS/RPS (whatever we want to go with) are not a revolutionary game changer, nor do they "scare the crap out of me."  They are simply the next step in the evolution of the reconnaissance bi-plane and its tactical role, and offer no more or no less than was offered in 1917.  And just like effective countermeasures are designed for the bi-plane, effective countermeasures for UAVs will undoubtedly ensure that offensive/defensive balance is achieved.

With that in mind, we probably want to get away from monsterous HQSS CP complexes that take most of a day to place and connect... Bde Main isn't safely behind the rear anymore (although it likely never was). From a C2 context, we've gone from big CPs under cam nets attracting fires, to big FOBs attracting rockets/mortars to returning to big CPs on big trucks not even bothering to conceal them anymore. What's the definition of insanity again?

 

[Infanteer]

With that in mind, we probably want to get away from monsterous HQSS CP complexes that take most of a day to place and connect... Bde Main isn't safely behind the rear anymore (although it likely never was). From a C2 context, we've gone from big CPs under cam nets attracting fires, to big FOBs attracting rockets/mortars to returning to big CPs on big trucks not even bothering to conceal them anymore. What's the definition of insanity again?

A consequence of some professional laziness in the West since 1991, when we essentially could rely upon Air Supremacy due to the USAF.  I think the Canadian Army feels this even more because of a relative lack of SATCOM systems, requiring us to lug more things around the AO.

We also aren't helped by the intellectual trap of having to having large staffs and, perhaps, an over-diversity of functionality in a tactical command post.

 

[Lumber]

Lol. Hiding from aircraft. You guys are cute.

Also, I get HQ and CP but whats SS?

 

[PuckChaser]

Headquarters Shelter System, replacement project for the mod tent us Jimmies sling around in the field. Basically seacans with folding sides and built in power/lights.

 

[Infanteer]

Lol. Hiding from aircraft. You guys are cute.

Also, I get HQ and CP but whats SS?

It's been done for 100+ years.  Read your history.  One good example is the PLA putting 350,000 soldiers into assembly areas on the Yalu, undetected, in 1950 despite complete air supremacy by the US Air Force.

 

[Lumber]

It's been done for 100+ years.  Read your history.  One good example is the PLA putting 350,000 soldiers into assembly areas on the Yalu, undetected, in 1950 despite complete air supremacy by the US Air Force.

...
It was sarcasm aimed at the fact that I'm in the Navy and in the Navy you can't hide your ships from aircraft. Ever.

 

[dapaterson]

...
It was sarcasm aimed at the fact that I'm in the Navy and in the Navy you can't hide your ship's from aircraft. Ever.

Submarines do a pretty good job of it.

 

[FJAG]

A consequence of some professional laziness in the West since 1991, when we essentially could rely upon Air Supremacy due to the USAF.  I think the Canadian Army feels this even more because of a relative lack of SATCOM systems, requiring us to lug more things around the AO.

We also aren't helped by the intellectual trap of having to having large staffs and, perhaps, an over-diversity of functionality in a tactical command post.

The above made me smile and refer back to our discussions you and I had last year about brigade structures and particularly the 422 person/131 vehicle armoured and mechanized brigade group headquarters. (as compared to a 314 pers/ 89 veh US ABCT and 298 pers/ 88 veh SBCT - which are a bit difficult to compare because of structure)

I've since had a closer look at Russian units and their relative leaness (and note that they are actively re-aggregating into divisional structures). One thing I haven't found is the size of a Russian brigade's headquarters. I expect that like their subordinate units, they are significantly more compact than ours.

:cheers:

 

[Lumber]

Submarines do a pretty good job of it.

Those are boats 

 

[Underway]

Those are boats 

:ditto:  :nod:

 

[MilEME09]

https://calgaryherald.com/pmn/news-pmn/azerbaijans-leader-says-no-end-to-fighting-until-armenia-sets-pullout-timetable/wcm/de0fc420-4689-4bb6-b397-dc9cb234bc11?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1601838391

Azerbaijan now says they have 1 condition to a ceasefire and peace talks, Armenia must set a pullout time table.

I doubt Armenia will but the international community may push for it as well given the UNSC including Russia have seen the disputed territory as Azerbaijan's.