BHP replacement project - C22 Pistol megathread

[KevinB]

While I agree with you, we should probably teach our pers to actually shoot with rifles first. After that we can worry about pistols.

Actually teaching pistol first builds much better habits.
If you can teach someone to shoot a pistol (which is also a lot cheaper - in terms of platform, parts and ammo) having them transition to rifle/carbine after is a cakewalk.

 

[CBH99]

I’d put money on them being carried in the empty mag shingles they have on their vests. Or this is a static range and they didn’t bother to grab holsters as the shooting program doesn’t require them and actively discourages training the draw as part of engaging.

I'm sorry, but what the f**k did I just read...??

...Or this is a static range and they didn’t bother to grab holsters as the shooting program doesn’t require them and actively discourages training the draw as part of engaging...


I'm assuming that's because training the draw has already been taught and rehearsed ad-nauseum, and this is a module based training range??

 

[brihard]

I’d put money on them being carried in the empty mag shingles they have on their vests. Or this is a static range and they didn’t bother to grab holsters as the shooting program doesn’t require them and actively discourages training the draw as part of engaging.

WTF? Why would CAF not teach engagement from the draw? If you need a pistol it’s probably cause you need it RTFN, like for a primary weapon stoppage at close range.

Loaded and readied pistols in a holster are not dangerous or scary, they’re just something to train for.

 

[KevinB]

WTF? Why would CAF not teach engagement from the draw? If you need a pistol it’s probably cause you need it RTFN, like for a primary weapon stoppage at close range.

Loaded and readied non Sig P320 pistols in a holster are not dangerous or scary, they’re just something to train for.

FIFY

 

[markppcli]

WTF? Why would CAF not teach engagement from the draw? If you need a pistol it’s probably cause you need it RTFN, like for a primary weapon stoppage at close range.

Loaded and readied pistols in a holster are not dangerous or scary, they’re just something to train for.

The CAF doesn’t like carrying pistols readied in the holster. The C22 is specifically not to be carried like this unless some stipulations are met - one of which being the member has shot pwt 3, don’t ask my what a marksmanship test is supposed to prove ref safe weapons handling. The “hot holster” thing is therefore not trained from the start and only at the end, if at all, as opposed to how every other user of hand guns would train it.

 

[brihard]

The CAF doesn’t like carrying pistols readied in the holster. The C22 is specifically not to be carried like this unless some stipulations are met - one of which being the member has shot pwt 3, don’t ask my what a marksmanship test is supposed to prove ref safe weapons handling. The “hot holster” thing is therefore not trained from the start and only at the end, if at all, as opposed to how every other user of hand guns would train it.

What an utter joke.

 

[MilEME09]

The CAF doesn’t like carrying pistols readied in the holster. The C22 is specifically not to be carried like this unless some stipulations are met - one of which being the member has shot pwt 3, don’t ask my what a marksmanship test is supposed to prove ref safe weapons handling. The “hot holster” thing is therefore not trained from the start and only at the end, if at all, as opposed to how every other user of hand guns would train it.

Yeah PWT3A (hot holster supplemental) makes more sense to teach first, it saves a huge amount of time on the other PWTs. Section 5 of the operational shooting program needs to be completely rewritten for the new pistol any way, we really need to take the opportunity to get it right

 

[markppcli]

Yeah PWT3A (hot holster supplemental) makes more sense to teach first, it saves a huge amount of time on the other PWTs. Section 5 of the operational shooting program needs to be completely rewritten for the new pistol any way, we really need to take the opportunity to get it right

The drills should be taught with the pistol holstered. So for the load, draw pistol to work space, remove magazine from the pouch, insert into pistol etc etc.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

As MH aircrew, the only thing I ever carried was a P226. The annual range qualification was done with holstered, but readied weapon. I am unaware of anyone causing an ND on the draw.

The only thing I ever carried on operations was a P226 with one up the spoutand decocked. Again, I am unaware of any ND, ever.

If a bunch of aircrew can be taught to do it safely, I would like to think army folk can be too.

 

[Good2Golf]

As MH aircrew, the only thing I ever carried was a P226. The annual range qualification was done with holstered, but readied weapon. I am unaware of anyone causing an ND on the draw.

The only thing I ever carried on operations was a P226 with one up the spoutand decocked. Again, I am unaware of any ND, ever.

If a bunch of aircrew can be taught to do it safely, I would like to think army folk can be too.

Unlike the rest of 1 Wg, 427 carried the 226…readied/Cond.1. No NDs to my knowledge. Train like you fight…heck, in AFG we even carried the BHP readied into our workplace in an *AFG govt building…sure as phuque wasn’t going to be hanging around waiting for an axe.

 

[MilEME09]

Unlike the rest of 1 Wg, at 427 we carried the 226…readied/Cond.1. No NDs to my knowledge. Train like you fight…heck, in AFG in the SAT, we even carried the BHP readied into our workplace (the Sedarat, PMs old residence)…sure as phuque wasn’t going to be hanging around waiting for an axe.

It really comes down to training, and safe handling culture. I find a lot of troops are less safe with pistols than they are rifles, at the rceme school most people fail on pistols for safety and mishandling rather then fault finding

 

[Good2Golf]

It really comes down to training, and safe handling culture. I find a lot of troops are less safe with pistols than they are rifles, at the rceme school most people fail on pistols for safety and mishandling rather then fault finding

I think it’s a confidence issue at the root of these issues. Do it often enough and it becomes second nature, and if you don’t train often, then when you go to do it, train intensely with folks who know what they’re doing.

 

[MilEME09]

I think it’s a confidence issue at the root of these issues. Do it often enough and it becomes second nature, and if you don’t train often, then when you go to do it, train intensely with folks who know what they’re doing.

Absolutely, many troops, techs included probably never touched a pistol before the military, and we expect them to be proficient after a week or so, then maybe touch it once a year after that if lucky.

Imo ive been pushing at my unit that all MRT commanders are carrying sigs in the field going forward (by doctrine we should be)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Pistol skills are the fastest degrading skills I have met. When doing IPSC, I was regularly doing 300rds a month downrange and practicing weekly. That put me into the bottom third>half of our Production Division. My instructor who still competes internationally, fires some 50,000rds yearly to be competitive.

Sadly the current laws in our country will make it impossible for troops to acquire and practice good firearm skills and I expect firearm handling skill to degrade even more over time.

 

[Fabius]

The small arms cell in the Inf School had dreams of improving the quality of pistol training when the C22 was introduced.
However the initiative was poorly thought out. The cell drafted and got signed off their vision for a C22 instructor package and C22 operator, which in theory the whole force was supposed to do.
However they had not communicated with anyone the higher ammo requirements. When the instructions dropped, no unit had anywhere close to the needed ammunition. Nor had SJS allocated for that level of ammunition across the CAF. The vision survived barely 10-12 months before it was quashed by the field forces hard resource constraints.

On the skill set side, the Army Small Arms cell’s instruction on how to draw pistol is not super great. There is not a great program of instruction for our NCOs to actually understand how to effectively draw a pistol. Teaching the draw is not well done. I assume that the MPs and CANSOF have a better POI but the Army hasn’t taken them aboard.

However that also exposes another problem with the small arms cell. It’s staffed with junior personnel who are not well trained and have little experience outside the Bn PWT ranges. On occasion as with the C22 role out they get exposed superficially to TTPs from other organizations. They then get enamoured with those TTPs from organizations that share almost no mission parameters with Army general purpose forces. These TTPs then get written into PWTs and taught to both soldiers and NCOs who have no understanding, context or experience to employ them.

On the private side the GoC has argued successfully in court in defending their gun control agenda that there is no need for private ownership of weapons by military or police to improve or maintain their skills.
That ignores the reality that in the general purpose forces, it’s the personnel with privately owned weapons who are practicing, training and competing on their time, that have the expertise and experience to actually advance the skills of the overall force.
The available range time, nature of the ranges and ammo availability don’t really allow for development of skill as shooters or coach’s.

 

[Ostrozac]

Unlike the rest of 1 Wg, 427 carried the 226…readied/Cond.1.

Didn’t you guys carry your 226s in Condition 2? That’s how I, and the people I worked with, would carry them. Hammer down on a loaded chamber. The only 226 that should be carried Condition 1 is the fairly uncommon 226 SAO Legion.

Edited to add the late Colonel Cooper’s handgun conditions:

• Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Two: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer down.
• Condition One: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety on.
• Condition Zero: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety off.

 

[markppcli]

Pistol skills are the fastest degrading skills I have met. When doing IPSC, I was regularly doing 300rds a month downrange and practicing weekly. That put me into the bottom third>half of our Production Division. My instructor who still competes internationally, fires some 50,000rds yearly to be competitive.

Sadly the current laws in our country will make it impossible for troops to acquire and practice good firearm skills and I expect firearm handling skill to degrade even more over time.

I’d suggest we should be providing this through work and not expecting people to do it in their own time.

 

[KevinB]

Didn’t you guys carry your 226s in Condition 2? That’s how I, and the people I worked with, woukd carry them. Hammer down on a loaded chamber. The only 226 that should be carried Condition 1 is the fairly uncommon 226 SAO Legion.

Edited to add the late Colonel Cooper’s handgun conditions:

• Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down.
• Condition Two: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer down.
• Condition One: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety on.
• Condition Zero: Round chambered, full magazine, hammer cocked, safety off.

Very few folks consider hammer down on a DA/SA gun condition 2. That was an idiot aspect for SA hammer guns (1911 or BHP as examples) where folks where ease the hammer down and then try to cock the hammer if they need to fire it.

Coopers rules were for SA hammer guns like the 1911 and BHP. Condition 1 for Striker fired or DA/SA guns is simply hammer down on a loaded chamber.
They never got updated to thinking about guns DA and Striker guns without safeties


For Striker guns or DA guns like the P225/226/229, hammer down on a loaded chamber chamber is Condition 1 (Readied).

 

[Fabius]

I’d suggest we should be providing this through work and not expecting people to do it in their own time.

On the one hand I agree but I also recognize that it’s the civilian side through the shooting sports that has largely driven the advancement in pure firearms handling and shooting skills as well as technology.

Those skills and equipment have migrated over to military and police as they matured. Without the civilian side, progress and diffusion of concepts would have been much slower.

Allowing those soldiers who have a personal interest in weapons and how to shoot, to practice with their privately owed weapons on civilian ranges, has helped greatly in advancing the military’s capabilities with personal weapons.
That ability is now either dead or severely handicapped for the CAF.

 

[markppcli]

On the one hand I agree but I also recognize that it’s the civilian side through the shooting sports that has largely driven the advancement in pure firearms handling and shooting skills as well as technology.

Those skills and equipment have migrated over to military and police as they matured. Without the civilian side, progress and diffusion of concepts would have been much slower.

Allowing those soldiers who have a personal interest in weapons and how to shoot, to practice with their privately owed weapons on civilian ranges, has helped greatly in advancing the military’s capabilities with personal weapons.
That ability is now either dead or severely handicapped for the CAF.

I’m not against guys shooting on their own. My point was that we shouldn’t rely on sport shooting to develop and maintain skills.