Boeing/Bombardier Discussion

[AlexanderM]

All I can find on NAFTA that matches what I saw on the news this morning.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/2017/10/17/nafta-update-likely-loggerheads-to-be-announced-at-300pm/

So the update is that they have decided to keep talking. On the news this morning they had this breaking news story with a clip of our Trade Minister looking like, where do we go from here, and the report that we and Mexico were going to tell the US no deal, then they went to commercial and there was nothing more on the story, anywhere. Now the update is they will add an extra session in 2018 and keep talking, but we have told the US, no way to their demands.

Not looking good.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nafta-freeland-lighthizer-round4-1.4358242

 

[MarkOttawa]

Airbus can ditch the poor-selling A319neo (Boeing 737 MAX-7 also in trouble) for CSeries 300:

Airbus-Bombardier CSeries shocker: First thoughts

Genuine surprise: I was at a reception last night in Atlanta filled with aviation journalists from 18 countries here to see Delta Air Lines publicly debut the Airbus A350 today, and shock wouldn’t be too strong a word to describe the reaction as the news broke. There has been speculation about Bombardier seeking partners for the CSeries program for years, but no one saw this deal coming at this time. In an era when almost nothing stays secret, Airbus and Bombardier kept these talks off Twitter and behind closed doors.

Bombardier concedes it needs CSeries sales help: With Airbus literally paying nothing to gain a majority stake in the CSeries, Bombardier is admitting that competing against Airbus and Boeing in the global mainline airliner sales arena was too heavy a lift. After breakthrough CSeries orders in the first half of last year from Delta and Air Canada, it was expected that CSeries sales would begin to quickly rack up. But sales stalled. Even with CS100s and CS300s performing well in service with Swiss International Air Lines and Latvia’s airBaltic, airlines remained wary of putting their full faith in Bombardier for a mainline aircraft. But now Airbus’s formidable global sales clout will be brought to bear on behalf of the CSeries.

Airbus concedes it failed to adequately address the 100-150-seat market: Bombardier has been saying all along that Airbus and Boeing simply left a blind spot in the commercial aircraft market, focusing their attention on larger narrowbodies and ignoring the between-regional-jet-and-small-airliner segment. Airbus is now admitting this and implicitly conceding the A319neo is inadequate for this market (the A319neo is not, by any means, where the manufacturer’s time and energy in the neo program has been placed) [emphasis added].

Boeing has to be experiencing major whiplash: Boeing thought it had won a quick victory over Bombardier with recent rulings by the US Commerce Department that would have effectively kept the CSeries out of the US market. Now Airbus/Bombardier will build the CSeries in Mobile, Alabama. How can you place 300% in duties on an aircraft built in Alabama, consisting of 50% US-made components, being delivered to Atlanta or other US cities? You probably can’t, either legally or politically, and so Boeing is left shaking its fist at “a questionable deal between two heavily state-subsidized competitors to skirt the recent findings of the US government.”

“Nice little airplane”: I keep thinking of Airbus COO-customers John Leahy touring the CSeries at the 2015 Paris Air Show and then, with a gleam in his eye, dismissively telling reporters that Bombardier had a “nice little airplane.”
http://atwonline.com/blog/airbus-bombardier-cseries-shocker-first-thoughts

Boeing 737 MAX-7, from May:

CSeries prices threaten 737 Max 7 'viability': Boeing
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/cseries-prices-threaten-737-max-7-viability-boein-437624/

But what happens to Q400 (Downsview ON) and CRJs (Mirabel)--both having fairly hard time these days, vs ATR and Embraer respectively:

Bombardier looks to revitalize older aircraft
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/bombardier-looks-to-revitalize-older-aircraft/article36242767/

No new regional jet for Bombardier, which wants to 'fine tune' the CRJ
http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/aerospace/no-new-regional-jet-for-bombardier-which-wants-to-fine-tune-the-crj

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

"Interim" Super Hornet seems to be dying a slow death:

Feds have until end of year to decide on Boeing Super Hornet fighter jets

The Trudeau government has until the end of the year to decide on an offer for Super Hornet fighter jets, which remain on the table despite recent escalations in the bitter feud with aerospace giant Boeing.

The U.S. government delivered a formal offer to sell the Boeing-made planes to Canada last month, after the Liberals said they were urgently needed to address a shortage of CF-18s.

But sources tell The Canadian Press that the offer for 18 Super Hornets and associated weapons and equipment, at an estimated cost of more than $6 billion, is only good until the end of the year.

The government can ask for an extension, but there is no guarantee it will be granted...

Canada has in fact been given longer to decide on the Super Hornets than is normal for countries that want to buy military equipment from the U.S. Formal offers are usually only good for 60 days before they expire...
https://globalnews.ca/news/3812668/trudeau-government-boeing-super-hornet-fighter-jets/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Pencil Tech]

"Interim" Super Hornet seems to be dying a slow death:

Mark
Ottawa

$6 billion for 18 Rhinos? I don't think so.

 

[Altair]

So I notice Boeing has been putting ads out about how much they do for Canada and how much business they have here.

Must be worried about the bad press.

 

[Loachman]

They're not working on me.

I'm not buying any of their products for a long, long time.

 

[MilEME09]

$6 billion for 18 Rhinos? I don't think so.

Just watch this will die out, but no competition will be launched

 

[dimsum]

Well, the Bombardier C-Series proposed replacement for the Aurora is one step closer to being a reality 

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Well, the Bombardier C-Series proposed replacement for the Aurora is one step closer to being a reality 

Well, there is certainly no way in hell we are P8s now.

Might as well start seeing where the bomb bay will fit in a 300 series...

 

[observor 69]

And this from todays G&M :
"Boeing loses in another way too. Having worked hard to destroy the C Series, the Canadian government is hardly likely to reward Boeing with fat defence contracts, such as its plan to replace Canada's clapped-out CF-18 fighter bombers with the new generation of F/A-18s, which are made by Boeing. The F/A-18s had been at the top of Canada's procurement list. Canada is now likely to consider buying non-Boeing planes, such as the Eurofighter Typhoon – which is made by a European consortium that includes Airbus – or France's Dassault Rafale. More jobs for Airbus in Alabama could translate into fewer jobs at Boeing's fighter-jet plants."

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/rob-commentary/when-trumps-celebrates-a-win-in-the-bombardier-dispute-it-will-be-at-boeings-expense/article36678275/

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Boeing deserves to be placed in the penalty box for a long time over this.  So glad it has blown up in their faces. 

 

[observor 69]

Lots of good info in this comparison of Eurofighter Typhoon vs Dassault Rafale, Royal Air Force vs French Air Force.
Also more detail in the comments that follow.

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/2014/06/fighter-jet-fight-club-typhoon-vs-rafale.html

 

[MarkOttawa]

Lots on Rafale from Defense Industry Daily should France/Dassault make offer for Bombardier assembly etc. (as perhaps with India):
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/frances-rafale-05991/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[AlexanderM]

Lots of good info in this comparison of Eurofighter Typhoon vs Dassault Rafale, Royal Air Force vs French Air Force.
Also more detail in the comments that follow.

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/2014/06/fighter-jet-fight-club-typhoon-vs-rafale.html

Just wanted to mention that the Typhoon does not yet have AESA radar, it's part of a soon to come upgrade. Also, things have become rather quiet while the US ponders what to do about the Airbus/Bombardier deal and what to do about NAFTA, as in, should they even continue talking. And yes I know more talks are already scheduled but they also know they don't have a deal.

Also, if you look at the first post below the article there is a claim that the Rafale, using SPECTRA, can lock up targets behind it, but I have no idea if this is accurate.

Here is the quote.

While an HMD certainly ease the cueing of short range A2A missile in the WVR arena, it would bring marginal comfort for a rafale armed with BVR capable MICA. Demonstrated over the shoulder MICA firing ( 15 km + range ) and rear sector acquisition via SPECTRA , shows Rafale ability to engage 360 deg. at medium BVR range before the merge . This is of significant tactical relevance ,even if all too often ignored in classic BVR or WVR capabilities assessment.

Found something more on firing on targets behind the Rafale. Here is the source.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/ho/noticia/18206/What-does-Egypt-get-for-choosing-the-Rafale---Dassault%E2%80%99s-fighter-jet-/

Here is the quote.

During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.

Concerning Sensor fusion.

The heart of this data fusion is the MDPU - Processing Unit Data Modules that comprises 19 LRUs (flight-line replaceable units), each providing a processing capacity up to 50 times greater than the previous generation of fighters. Translation: The pilot has a reduced workload, which enables him to act like a real tactical decision maker, rather than a mere sensor operator.

 

[SupersonicMax]

HMD is a lot more than a cueing systems in A/A. What is displayed in it helps maintain SA on the fight.  You can see your wingman (with distance and altitude delta), see there the targets are (no need to guess from the radar display as to where to look), launch acceptable regions and get aircraft state information.  I use it more in that context than for cueing.

 

[AlexanderM]

HMD is a lot more than a cueing systems in A/A. What is displayed in it helps maintain SA on the fight.  You can see your wingman (with distance and altitude delta), see there the targets are (no need to guess from the radar display as to where to look), launch acceptable regions and get aircraft state information.  I use it more in that context than for cueing.

Qatar is adding HMD's for their Rafale jets, so it can be done.

http://defence-blog.com/news/qatar-orders-helmet-mounted-display-systems-for-its-new-rafale-fighter-jets.html

And

http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/2014/09/my-mixed-feelings-on-rafale.html

The Rafale has already been tested with the "TopOwl-F" HMD, but for one reason or another, neither the French air force nor the French navy have made plans to outfit Rafales with an HMD.  The capability is there, but the implementation is not.

Again, the Rafale's promised "open source" architecture means that the addition of an HMD likely would not be an issue.  It is very possible that the CF-18's current JHMCS could be adapted, with more advanced models to follow.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Cf. Eurofighter for RCAF--Liberals' innovation "superclusters" anyone? ( https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-selects-nine-industry-groups-shortlist-for-superclusters-program/article36528441/ )

Eurofighter companies add on to Belgian contract bid
Eurofighter consortium companies will support development of innovation centers in Belgium if the Typhoon is chosen to replace F-16s of the Belgian Air Force.

Eurofighter consortium companies will try to develop national innovation centers in Belgium if Eurofighter is chosen to replace Belgium's F-16 aircraft.

The commitment by BAE Systems, Airbus Defense and Space, Leonardo and missile systems company MBDA came in the form of endorsements signed in Brussels during British Minister for Defense Procurement Harriett Baldwin's visit to the office of Eurofighter companies. {link: A Eurofighter release: "https://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-events/2017/10/eurofighter-companies-commit-to-supporting-development-of-national-innovation-centres-for-belgium" target="_blank"} said the endorsements are for two innovation centers, one in Flanders and one in Wallonia.

"With the support of our partner companies across Europe, we are delighted to sign these endorsements which form a key component of our industrial offer to Belgium," said Anthony Gregory, Campaign Director for Belgium at BAE Systems. "These centers in Flanders and Wallonia could not only build on Belgium's existing capabilities, but also play an essential role in positioning Belgium's industry for work on future combat aircraft programs in Europe with key European partners."

The two centers would focus on advanced manufacturing and additive layer manufacturing. Eurofighter partner companies would invest in the development of research agendas by the centers.

BAE Systems, as part of the Eurofighter contract bid, is also also proposing to establish the infrastructure, technology and training to accommodate and run a Belgian National Network Cyber Center in partnership with the UK and Belgian Governments.

Belgium plans to replace more than 50 F-16s and issued a Request for Government Proposals last March. Britain has proposed the Eurofighter Typhoon. Other planes offered include the Boeing Super Hornet (US), Dassault's Rafale (France), Lockheed Martin's F-35 (United States) and the Gripen by Sweden's Saab.
https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/2017/10/27/Eurofighter-companies-add-on-to-Belgian-contract-bid/7701509125925/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[SeaKingTacco]

If we end up going European with our next fighter, I seem to think the Typhoon has better future potential for growth than the Rafale.

Lot more users, too.

 

[PuckChaser]

Eurfoghter will never get the cost down enough to win a competition. Kuwait deal was $140M USD per aircraft, and they were likely blocked from some technology and weapons only available to FVEY/NATO countries.

 

[observor 69]

Or maybe around US $114M :

"BAE Systems has slashed the cost of producing a Typhoon jet by 20pc over the past five years and slowed the production rate in an attempt to boost export orders for the supersonic fighter.


The company, which builds the aircraft at its plant in Warton, Lancs, is seeking to win export customers as it closes in on providing the 160 jets ordered by the Ministry of Defence.


So far the RAF has taken delivery of 129 of the twin-engine planes which, according to government data, cost £87m each."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/11749347/BAE-slashes-cost-of-making-Typhoon-jet-fighters-as-it-seeks-new-export-orders.html