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CAN-USA Tariff Strife (split from various pol threads)

Genetk44 said:
View attachment 91846An interesting comment with full timeline of events written by a Kim Aston.

Updated to reflect threats made by Trump the morning of March 11th.**

One thing I've learned over the past few weeks, and it's been a bit of a sobering lesson, is that a lot of Americans I know don't actually know what's going on between the US and Canada right now, and just how seriously Canadians are taking this. So, against my better judgement, here's a timeline to explain why we're here, and why we're angry.
Nov 30th, 2018 - The United States, Canada and Mexico finalize a trade agreement. Trump personally negotiates the terms and signs the document, celebrating it as 'the greatest trade agreement in history". (This is important.)
Nov 29th, 2024 - In a face to face meeting, Trump threatens the Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, that he will be imposing 25% tariffs and that if Canada wants to avoid that, it should join the US as a state.
Nov 30th, 2024 - Trump publicly calls our Prime Minister 'Governor Trudeau' and instructs his staff to only address him as Governor going forward. He again suggests Canada should join the USA.
Dec 3rd, 2024 - Trump remarks that he would split Canada into two states once annexed.
Dec 10th, 2024 - Trump posts that the majority of Canadians support annexation, despite public polling that only 13% of Canadians would consider the idea.
Dec 18th, 2024 - Trump again falsely states that the majority of Canadians support annexation and that one of his lapdogs, Wayne Gretzky, should have a leadership role in that new scenario.
Jan 7th, 2025 - At a press conference, Trump says that he would use economic force to destroy the Canadian economy to annex it.
Jan 14, 2025 - Trump again claims that most Canadians want to be American, despite new polls showing only 10% of us are open to the idea.
Jan 20th, 2025 - During his inaugural address, Trump says that the U.S. will 'expand its territory' during his second term.
Jan 23rd, 2025 - At the World Economic Forum, Trump says that Canada can avoid tariffs and economic collapse if it joins the US. He says this in front of representatives from most countries in the world.
Jan 24th, 2025 - Trump states publicly that Canada 'will' become a state
Jan 31st, 2025 - Trump announces a 25% tariff on all Canadian imports to begin the next day.
Feb 2nd, 2025 - Trump refers to Canada as its 'Cherished 51st state' and that it should join the US to avoid tariffs.
Feb 3rd, 2025 - A one month delay is agreed upon. Trump, in a conversation with Trudeau states that he doesn't think existing border treaties with Canada are valid, and need to be revised.
Feb 7th, 2025 - In a closed door meeting with his cabinet, Prime Minister Trudeau is recorded, without his knowledge, telling everyone that he believes very strongly that Trump is serious and that he stated his reason for annexation as Canadian resources.
Feb 9th, 2025 - In a Super Bowl pre-game interview, Trump says that he's serious about his threats, calling it a 'viable consideration for expanding US territory'
Feb 10th, 2025 - Trump announces an additional 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum imports from Canada to come into effect March 12th.
Feb 24th, 2025 - Trump publicly remarks that whoever signed the USMCA agreement is an idiot. He was the one that signed it.
Feb 27th, 2025 - Reports of American spy planes and reconnaissance aircraft flying over southern Alberta and Saskatchewan.
March 4th, 5th, and 6th 2025 - Tariffs come into effect. Canada retaliates with it's own tariffs. Tariffs are again postponed until April 1st after a huge market backlash.
March 4th, 2025 - In an address to a joint session of congress, Trump states that the US will own Greenland 'one way or the other'.
March 5th, 2025 - US Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick told Canadian finance minister Dominic LeBlanc that Trump "had come to realize that the relationship between the United States and Canada was governed by a slew of agreements and treaties that were easy to abandon."
March 7th, 2025 - Unconfirmed Memorandum and maps leaked on twitter reveal Trump is allegedly planning to annex the entirety of the great lakes and Southern Ontario, home to 13,491,332 Canadians. This amounts to 35.25% of Canada's total population and includes its largest city, Toronto. This region accounts for 38% of the Canadian economy, and its loss would make Canada's independence functionally impossible.
March 8th, 2025 - Canada's foreign minister warns European allies that their government considers Canada to be under existential threat.
March 9th, 2025 - Mark Carney, the new Canadian Prime Minister, in his acceptance speech, states that Trump is seeking to destroy Canada, and its way of life.
March 11, 2025 - President Trump threatens to “permanently shut down the automobile manufacturing business in Canada” if Canada does not drop a 250% to 390% tariff on U.S. dairy products, which he doesn’t state only kicks in after a certain quantity of tariff-free U.S. dairy enters Canada, a quantity that was originally negotiated and agreed to by Trump during the USMCA in 2018.
In Trump's own words, "The only thing that makes sense is for Canada to become our cherished Fifty First State. This would make all Tariffs, and everything else, totally disappear. Canadians’ taxes will be very substantially reduced, they will be more secure, militarily and otherwise, than ever before, there would no longer be a Northern Border problem, and the greatest and most powerful nation in the World will be bigger, better and stronger than ever — And Canada will be a big part of that. The artificial line of separation drawn many years ago will finally disappear, and we will have the safest and most beautiful Nation anywhere in the World — And your brilliant anthem, “O Canada,” will continue to play, but now representing a GREAT and POWERFUL STATE within the greatest Nation that the World has ever seen!"
To my American friends, I know most of you are amazing and generous people. You didn't ask for this, and I understand that. I hold no ill will towards you, whatsoever. But I must stress, with as much seriousness as I can, the amount of damage this has done.
We have viewed you as our closest friend and ally for a century. We thought of you as brothers and sisters. We answered the call, again and again, for any support you needed from us. Most of Canadians visit the USA so much that we've seen more of the US than we have the rest of Canada.
American products have been taken off our shelves. Canadians are cancelling travel plans to the US. Photo after photo has been shared on social media of empty flights from Canada to the USA.
This isn't a joke to us. We're not overreacting. We don't think he's just saying this shit to cause chaos or negotiate a deal. We wholeheartedly believe that our closest ally and friend is about to bring violence across our border, economically destroy us, and eliminate our way of life.
The main driver for Canada's creation in 1867 was SPECIFICALLY to not be part of America, and to end America's very public threats and plans to annex our territory.
We're angry. We're really, really fucking angry. Open your eyes to what's happening because we're tired of trying to make you understand why and asking you why it seems like none of you care. **
I still hope that there is time to repair this. I still believe that this is the result of one man's plan to burn it all down. But time is running out, and fast.
Click to expand...
This is the same scare mongering crap carney is peddling. Canada is going to be invaded. Trump is going to annex us.

Nobody is taking over any physical Canadian territory. Quit being chicken little.
 
Czech_pivo said:
Hope you never have to eat those words.
Click to expand...
If I have to, we have bigger problems than me eating crow.

How about you? Do you think Trump will send armed troops over the border to seize land like putin did? An actual armed invasion, with gunfire and ordnance? Will we have M1 tanks coming over the bridge or shelling from Detroit into Windsor? Tomahawks into Ottawa?

Genetk44, same question to you. In your own words and thoughts. Not a copy and paste from someone else.
 
Last edited:
Fishbone Jones said:
If I have to, we have bigger problems than me eating crow.

How about you? Do you think Trump will send armed troops over the border to seize land like putin did? An actual armed invasion, with gunfire and ordnance? Will we have M1 tanks coming over the bridge or shelling from Detroit into Windsor? Tomahawks into Ottawa?

Genetk44, same question to you. In your own words and thoughts. Not a copy and paste from someone else.
Click to expand...
No I don't see that scenario occurring.

If we were to do something like put a 25% export tax on all Oil, gas, electricity, potash, uranium, aluminum, etc and held that tax in place over a number of months - I could see something potentially occurring under a presidential order of a 'clear and existential threat to the well-being of the US.'
 
Czech_pivo said:
No I don't see that scenario occurring.

If we were to do something like put a 25% export tax on all Oil, gas, electricity, potash, uranium, aluminum, etc and held that tax in place over a number of months - I could see something potentially occurring under a presidential order of a 'clear and existential threat to the well-being of the US.'
Click to expand...

But I thought America doesn’t need Canadian products? Isn’t that what Trump keeps saying when he’s not having a tantrum that we hit tariffs right back at them?
 
brihard said:
But I thought America doesn’t need Canadian products? Isn’t that what Trump keeps saying when he’s not having a tantrum that we hit tariffs right back at them?
Click to expand...
Imagine being inter reliant with Allies.
Sucks when you take a hard Left Turn though.
 
ModlrMike said:
TBH, I think the US actually took a hard right.
Click to expand...

They're certainly more politically polarized than ever before, whatever flavour of politics they follow, which is worrying ...


Political Polarization in the American Public​

How Increasing Ideological Uniformity and Partisan Antipathy Affect Politics, Compromise and Everyday Life​

Republicans and Democrats are more divided along ideological lines – and partisan antipathy is deeper and more extensive – than at any point in the last two decades. These trends manifest themselves in myriad ways, both in politics and in everyday life. And a new survey of 10,000 adults nationwide finds that these divisions are greatest among those who are the most engaged and active in the political process.


1741821768028.png

www.pewresearch.org

Political Polarization in the American Public

Republicans and Democrats are more divided along ideological lines – and partisan antipathy is deeper and more extensive – than at any point in recent history. And these trends manifest themselves in myriad ways, both in politics and in everyday life.
www.pewresearch.org www.pewresearch.org
 
dapaterson said:
Trump talking about the 51st state predates that discussion.
Click to expand...
If this is true, I believe this would have been the dinner at Mar-a-Lago, right after which the “51st state” trial balloon popped up. I don’t recall him talking about this before hand.
 
Not sure if this belong here or maybe a new thread?

Assuming that Canada and the US can work out, beneficially for both countries, this latest trade dispute, what are people's thoughts on moving towards a 'Schengen-like' Agreement between Canada and the US?

Personally as someone who grew up on the Windsor/Detroit border and had close family that we'd visit multiple times a month in the days of just showing a drivers license and maybe a birth certificate that was just a small piece of paper, I'd have issues with this. I can see that it potentially should be way to use for individuals in the border cities to cross into Canada with their guns (legal or illegal) and cause complete mayhem.

So the concept of a Schengen situation where you just drive across the border without stopping or showing ID would not work. But, I could see us go to back to where we were pre-9/11 and the ability to show an enhanced drivers license (which we already have in Ontario) that shows your citizenship and no longer have the need to have a passport might be a possibility.

Back over to the potential guns across the border issue. Lets look at a high level between Switzerland and France:

  1. Land neighbours
  2. Both member of the Schengen Agreement
  3. Large difference in population - 9m vs 67m
  4. Switzerland has the among most liberal gun laws in Europe, France does not
  5. All eligible Swiss males have their automatic service weapon within their home - French males do not
  6. Swiss vets can keep their service weapon after they retire - French vets cannot
  7. Both require licenses to obtain their weapons, in Switzerland there is no specific requirement for a mental health check
  8. Handgun ownership is allowed in both countries - in Switzerland all guns can be full auto
  9. Neither have open carry ability - * allowable with a special permit if you work in armed security or have a valid personal security concern
  10. You can own an AR-15 in Switzerland with a standard mag capacity - you cannot own an AR-15 in France
So, with the above as an initial starting point, it looks on the whole that Switzerland is alot more liberal in gun ownership that France, I mean Swiss vets get to keep their personal weapon when they retire and they can own an AR-15 with a mag capacity of 10, 15 or 20 (whatever 'standard' mag capacity is). With all that being said, there would be nothing stopping a retired Swiss vet to put his personal automatic weapon with a mag capacity of say 20 rounds, into the trunk of his car and drive with it from Bern all the way down to his summer house in Cap Antibes and put it into his closet while he summer and swims in the Med for the whole month of August and then put it back into the trunk of his car on 31 Aug and drive it all the way back to Bern and home. No Swiss or French authority would be any wiser and no one in the French public would be aware that this occurred.
 
Czech_pivo said:
Not sure if this belong here or maybe a new thread?

Assuming that Canada and the US can work out, beneficially for both countries, this latest trade dispute, what are people's thoughts on moving towards a 'Schengen-like' Agreement between Canada and the US?

Personally as someone who grew up on the Windsor/Detroit border and had close family that we'd visit multiple times a month in the days of just showing a drivers license and maybe a birth certificate that was just a small piece of paper, I'd have issues with this. I can see that it potentially should be way to use for individuals in the border cities to cross into Canada with their guns (legal or illegal) and cause complete mayhem.

So the concept of a Schengen situation where you just drive across the border without stopping or showing ID would not work. But, I could see us go to back to where we were pre-9/11 and the ability to show an enhanced drivers license (which we already have in Ontario) that shows your citizenship and no longer have the need to have a passport might be a possibility.

Back over to the potential guns across the border issue. Lets look at a high level between Switzerland and France:

  1. Land neighbours
  2. Both member of the Schengen Agreement
  3. Large difference in population - 9m vs 67m
  4. Switzerland has the among most liberal gun laws in Europe, France does not
  5. All eligible Swiss males have their automatic service weapon within their home - French males do not
  6. Swiss vets can keep their service weapon after they retire - French vets cannot
  7. Both require licenses to obtain their weapons, in Switzerland there is no specific requirement for a mental health check
  8. Handgun ownership is allowed in both countries - in Switzerland all guns can be full auto
  9. Neither have open carry ability - * allowable with a special permit if you work in armed security or have a valid personal security concern
  10. You can own an AR-15 in Switzerland with a standard mag capacity - you cannot own an AR-15 in France
So, with the above as an initial starting point, it looks on the whole that Switzerland is alot more liberal in gun ownership that France, I mean Swiss vets get to keep their personal weapon when they retire and they can own an AR-15 with a mag capacity of 10, 15 or 20 (whatever 'standard' mag capacity is). With all that being said, there would be nothing stopping a retired Swiss vet to put his personal automatic weapon with a mag capacity of say 20 rounds, into the trunk of his car and drive with it from Bern all the way down to his summer house in Cap Antibes and put it into his closet while he summer and swims in the Med for the whole month of August and then put it back into the trunk of his car on 31 Aug and drive it all the way back to Bern and home. No Swiss or French authority would be any wiser and no one in the French public would be aware that this occurred.
Click to expand...
If you mean freedom to live and move, no thanks. That's a good way to formalize brain drain to somewhere warmer from here and alot of poor people coming North for social services from there. Nevermind that our relationship is irreparably broken for probably a generation.
 
That is not part of the Schengen Agreement that I'm referring to. Sorry, I should have been more specific - mea culpa.

I'm referring about the ability to drive/fly/train/boat/walk into one of the Schengen countries without the need to show a passport or ID. I have experienced this many many times during my trips to Europe.

I rent a house in Arcachon and I drive down in San Sebastian in Spain for the day and drive right into Spain, no border check, no ID check, nothing because France cleared me initially when I flew into Bordeaux and the French clearing me into their country gives me the ability to drive into any other Schengen country with the same 'rights' as a French citizen.

That is what I was referring to.
PrairieFella said:
If you mean freedom to live and move, no thanks. That's a good way to formalize brain drain to somewhere warmer from here and alot of poor people coming North for social services from there. Nevermind that our relationship is irreparably broken for probably a generation.
Click to expand...
 
Oh, w
Czech_pivo said:
That is not part of the Schengen Agreement that I'm referring to. Sorry, I should have been more specific - mea culpa.

I'm referring about the ability to drive/fly/train/boat/walk into one of the Schengen countries without the need to show a passport or ID. I have experienced this many many times during my trips to Europe.

I rent a house in Arcachon and I drive down in San Sebastian in Spain for the day and drive right into Spain, no border check, no ID check, nothing because France cleared me initially when I flew into Bordeaux and the French clearing me into their country gives me the ability to drive into any other Schengen country with the same 'rights' as a French citizen.

That is what I was referring to.
Click to expand...
Oh! Well thats different. I'd be a bit worried about American criminals taking advantage of this to run guns and drugs but the impacts socially probably wouldn't be too tricky.
 
Prediction:

The US is divided on whether it would accept Canada as a state or combination of states and likewise there is a large majority in Canada against such a union. The 51st state scenario has shallow support for all the numerous reasons already posted here by others, but namely for Canada the loss of sovereignty and identity, and for the US an unacceptable tilt to the left and all that brings.

Right now Trump has created a narrative where there are two extremes. One extreme being the 51st state and the other is status quo. Both are untenable. Most of Canada and a large part of the US will resist the 51st state scenario. But the US won't allow and Canada won't be able to maintain status quo. Canada will not survive a full blown economic war with the US and we are too far behind on defence, resource development, and economic diversity to put up a serious fight, we would crater our country. Trump through his chaotic approach has made the tariff issue a top priority of Canada, who now can't ignore the issue and kick the can down the road.

I think we are going to land right where I stated at the start of this thing. In the middle. A far more integrated North America both economically and militarily. There will be some winners and some losers in this scenario. I don't know exactly how that will look but at the end of the day both countries will be far better off in the long run.
 
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