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Canada seeks to buy Long Range Precision Rockets (probably US MLRS or HIMARS)

There's an Commercial line the has a class of RoRo called the Orca class running between Seattle and Alaska. It looks interesting for several reasons.

The Alaska Marine Highway enters the chat.

I've been on it a couple of times. It's a great experience!

 
The Alaska Marine Highway enters the chat.

I've been on it a couple of times. It's a great experience!



The secret is to ensure that there is surplus capacity in peace time so that some of that capacity can be sacrificed in a crisis while still maintaining service.
 
That's a very temporary solution. How long do we leave NFLD cut off from the rest of Canada ? That province depends on those ferry's for food and all sundry or life supporting goods.
Would we be cutting off Nfld from Canada, or cutting off Canada from Nfld?
 
The secret is to ensure that there is surplus capacity in peace time so that some of that capacity can be sacrificed in a crisis while still maintaining service.
That doesn't work anymore... The media and opposition would call surplus capacity government waste, and the government that decided to buy a surplus would be voted out.

The media and government have trained votera to think in year to year, maybe election to election, and not to consider the long term.
 
The secret is to ensure that there is surplus capacity in peace time so that some of that capacity can be sacrificed in a crisis while still maintaining service.
That truly is the answer for this type of capability. The idea of a "big honking ship" in the CAF inventory that sits around for 360 days a year doing nothing is a waste of resources. One that provides surplus capacity in peacetime (possibly even with active or reserve crews) sharing time operating it from time to time during the year benefits not only a surge military capability but also full-time civilian infrastructure resilience.

That doesn't work anymore... The media and opposition would call surplus capacity government waste, and the government that decided to buy a surplus would be voted out.

The media and government have trained votera to think in year to year, maybe election to election, and not to consider the long term.
That speaks of a lack, or failure, of an effective long term education and communication strategy on the part of the government and military. It's an own goal.

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That truly is the answer for this type of capability. The idea of a "big honking ship" in the CAF inventory that sits around for 360 days a year doing nothing is a waste of resources. One that provides surplus capacity in peacetime (possibly even with active or reserve crews sharing time operating it from time to time during the year benefits not only a surge military capability but also full-time civilian infrastructure resilience.

So this is your answer then Point-Class sealift ship. Its a good answer.

If we want a big honking ship, thats a pan CAF level change in doctrine, that will have major effects on the RCAF and CA as well. And it wont be sitting idle 360 days a year. Lots of Navys have this capability and they are used more than 5 days a year.
 
So this is your answer then Point-Class sealift ship. Its a good answer.

If we want a big honking ship, thats a pan CAF level change in doctrine, that will have major effects on the RCAF and CA as well. And it wont be sitting idle 360 days a year. Lots of Navys have this capability and they are used more than 5 days a year.
That's making its way into the next draft of "Unsustainable."

:cool:
 
That's making its way into the next draft of "Unsustainable."

:cool:

The big honking ship ? Not necessarily unsustainable, but the change would be institutional level in scope. Depending how big of big honking ship we wanted.

The Point Class, we work with industry and put them on 48hours notice to move for our needs. And let industry use them in the mean time. Same thing they do in the UK.
 
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More on the UK method:


I think I have successfully derailed this artillery thread to not only Logistics, Naval Logistics lol.

Cracking Up Lol GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon
 
I don't think we need Korea for the Defence of Canada division unless they have a real nice air defence suite. For vehicles we already have the GDLS LAV/ACSV and Roshel lines who can can do the medium and lower level wheeled armour which is all that is needed here. We don't need IFVs, tanks, or SP howitzers for 2 Div. We do need a better broader line of RWS that can be fitted to both. Comms, optics, radars etc we need to bring onshore as well.

Equipping the manoeuvre div is a different problem. I prefer a North American (Canadian especially) manufacturing base which is less likely to be stressed by competing demands or even destroyed in a conflict. There's an upfront cost to establishing other lines of equipment here but we need to put cash down for that. Quite frankly I'm not too concerned about the actual systems as long as they are built here and that we own the IP/maint/supply lines for it.

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On the RWS front, RS4 and RS6 are probably sufficient. Benefit of that is standardized training, DCPs and controls across the Div. You can mount an M230LF 30mm cannon on an RS6, perfect gun for LCav. 50s/GPMGs for everyone else.
 
On the RWS front, RS4 and RS6 are probably sufficient. Benefit of that is standardized training, DCPs and controls across the Div. You can mount an M230LF 30mm cannon on an RS6, perfect gun for LCav. 50s/GPMGs for everyone else.
I frankly do not know enough as between the Kongsberg and Moog lines of product to compare them intelligently, but the issue you mention is the one I think is the important one, standardization across the various fleets so that one weapons tech and supply chain and training chain can meet the 90% requirement. There will always be a difference between a vehicle with a DF/CUAV .50cal RWS and an air defence one firing 30mm AHEAD but as much as possible there should be one standard mounting/fire control/crew placement etc etc so that a variety of systems can easily be mounted across multiple fleets/purposes.

At some point we need to buy into a solution at large scale so that we can get long-term manufacture located within Canada.

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I frankly do not know enough as between the Kongsberg and Moog lines of product to compare them intelligently, but the issue you mention is the one I think is the important one, standardization across the various fleets so that one weapons tech and supply chain and training chain can meet the 90% requirement. There will always be a difference between a vehicle with a DF/CUAV .50cal RWS and an air defence one firing 30mm AHEAD but as much as possible there should be one standard mounting/fire control/crew placement etc etc so that a variety of systems can easily be mounted across multiple fleets/purposes.

At some point we need to buy into a solution at large scale so that we can get long-term manufacture located within Canada.

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I think MOOG could be cut right out. RS6 is the hardkill core of the MADIS system down south, so obviously the work has been done to enable them to act in an VSHORAD capacity. Further, you can integrate stingers into both RS6 and RS4. Im really hoping the rumours are true that we're ditching DRWS as it approaches EoL and standardize with the RS-family. Thatll make our loves much easier when instructing DF gunnery.

In terms of on-shoring - I have no idea if Kongsberg would be willing. Maybe with a big enough purchase they integrate us into the aupply chain at very least? Tough sell unless we're buying tens of thousands like the Yanks.
 
In terms of on-shoring - I have no idea if Kongsberg would be willing. Maybe with a big enough purchase they integrate us into the aupply chain at very least? Tough sell unless we're buying tens of thousands like the Yanks.
In my day we had 30cal and 50 cal MGs on many mid and rear area vehicles in the unlikely possibility we might need them to defend against Spetsnaz ambush or a rogue fast air getting through. That has now changed to the high possibility of varying classes of strike UAVs proliferating in those areas and even in the homeland. My guess is that we will need thousands of these systems in both 1 and 2 Div or we will need to be prepared to loose both A and B vehicles in the thousands. We shouldn't be building any vehicles that aren't fitted for receiving an RWS. We've spent many decades buying military kit "good enough for peacetime." That type of thinking needs to stop on an industrial scale.

If Kongsberg won't manufacture here from scratch then we build our own factory. In WW2 we were the fourth largest manufacturers of military vehicles and weapons systems amongst the allies. We built guns and airplanes in the tens of thousands and vehicles in the hundreds of thousands.

If Norway, with 5.6 million people and 1/4 of Canada's GDP, can run a company like Kongsberg - and they are the 50.004% majority shareholder in the company - then what's stopping Canada that can't be fixed with some seed capital and a guaranteed demand for the product?

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I dont disagree but I will temper expectations. As an example, LUV will be shipping without RWS. Thats a couple thousand platforms thatll be pintle mount. Honestly, thats probably fine. The big problem with RWS systems is EO Techs. Theyre expensive, hard to train and relatively rare. We can certainly grow the EO Tech trade but that will take lots of time, lots of money and lots of specialist tooling beingg distributed nationwide if we want to grow the RWS fleet. Pintle with gunner shields/light turrets is probably fine for A2 and B ech vehicles.
 
More on the UK method:


I think I have successfully derailed this artillery thread to not only Logistics, Naval Logistics lol.

Cracking Up Lol GIF by The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon

Feel free to use my excuse: Everything is connected to everything.
 
I dont disagree but I will temper expectations. As an example, LUV will be shipping without RWS. Thats a couple thousand platforms thatll be pintle mount. Honestly, thats probably fine. The big problem with RWS systems is EO Techs. Theyre expensive, hard to train and relatively rare. We can certainly grow the EO Tech trade but that will take lots of time, lots of money and lots of specialist tooling beingg distributed nationwide if we want to grow the RWS fleet. Pintle with gunner shields/light turrets is probably fine for A2 and B ech vehicles.
Fully agree that we need to grow the trade and other maintainer trades too.

The complexity of systems has grown astronomically since I was a young pup on the gunline but even in those days each mech battery had its own rad tech, weapons tech, electronics and optics tech and around a dozen or more different vehicle techs. I doubt that a modern battery has that many assigned to it notwithstanding the greater complexity of everything. If we start having more and more large weapon systems with autoloaders and on-board navigation and fire direction systems the situation will get much worse.

The time to start growing these fields is now. If we need to sacrifice the PYs of one or more full-time infantry battalions (or better yet several scores of directorates in Ottawa) then lets get on with it.

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The Army needs to learn from the RCAF about fleets being sized to support increases in VOR due to technical complexity.

More complex systems require more maintenance and have lower availability rates. For complex systems, smash it with a wrench and it'll work again isn't a thing. Usually.
 
The Army needs to learn from the RCAF about fleets being sized to support increases in VOR due to technical complexity.

More complex systems require more maintenance and have lower availability rates. For complex systems, smash it with a wrench and it'll work again isn't a thing. Usually.

And the more complex your tank, the more systems you pile aboard, the more likely the vehicle won't be fully functional.
 
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