Canadians Show Growing Support for Military and Defence Spending

[Halifax Tar]

The young people in 1930s Canada lived in far worse conditions than ours do now. Most young men lived at home with their parents until well into their twenties and thirties when they could finally afford marriage and accommodation of their own. The depression still had a lingering effect.

It's not the conditions; it's the expectations. Post WW2 the nation changed. It was a lengthy boom period. As a 60s Boomer there was never a question of "will I find a job?" it was "which job do I want to take?" Houses kept getting bigger and more numerous in big city made possible by the high number of post-war European immigrant labour. They built houses and didn't run 7/11s or nail parlors.

If the message hasn't been clear yet, the current generation contain a very high percentage of whingers who social mediaize and wonder why things aren't falling into their hands. What else could one possibly expect from the children and grandchildren of the "Me Generation." It's not so much that their conditions are so terrible, it's that their unfulfilled expectations are unrealistically high.

 

[lenaitch]

I used them to pay for a history degree

And that is part of the problem that can be rightly laid at the feet of our (Boomer) generation. What did you realistically expect to do with a History BA?

We encouraged our kids to go to university without clearly understanding why. Very, very few of my generation went to university. We had shop wings in high school. Most companies were willing to train or carry apprentices. Some of us born in the '50s took advantage of the emerging (in Ontario) of community colleges which were essentially (small T) trade schools. None had residences - you went to a local one (admittedly, I grew up in a city so, choice).

Then industry decided they wanted undergrad degrees for pretty much everything to get 'better people'. School boards closed shops. Industry increasingly expected applicants to 'come trained'. Graduates had debt (both tuition and residence). It's a lot easier to get an 'entry job' when you aren't piled in debt.

Our daughter (Millennial) started out in a BEd program but very quickly decided she didn't want to be a teacher so flipped to a History major. She did manage to parley that into an actual history-adjacent career.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We went the university route for both my daughter, for a few reasons. They are both really smart, the system is stacked against those without degrees. Neither of my daughters are really into trades work, although one likes to tinker on cars. My youngest still wants to be a deck officer in the CCG or a CAF officer, but with the diabetes, those are not likley to happen, which is a shame.
With computerized systems handling job applications, people without degrees are discriminated against, as the systems are generally poor at judging "other experience" in lieu of. No way would I have gotten the job I did now, I would have been screened out. The majority of jobs that ask for a degree, do not actually require it. It's only because the people writing the job description, can't fathom any other form of education and learning.

 

[RedFive]

And that is part of the problem that can be rightly laid at the feet of our (Boomer) generation. What did you realistically expect to do with a History BA?

Needed a degree to commission and I find history very interesting. Never ended up commissioning though, chose to stick around as an NCM Reservist when CFRC blew me off for the Reg Force Officer jobs I wanted.

I did get pushed very hard into the degree = success camp by my parents too.


But anyways we’re waaayyyyy off topic now.

 

[FJAG]

We encouraged our kids to go to university without clearly understanding why. Very, very few of my generation went to university. We had shop wings in high school. Most companies were willing to train or carry apprentices. Some of us born in the '50s took advantage of the emerging (in Ontario) of community colleges which were essentially (small T) trade schools. None had residences - you went to a local one (admittedly, I grew up in a city so, choice).

That is so true. I started in Grade 9 in what Ontario at the time was called the Science, technology and Trades program which prepared you for the only establishment afterwards which would take you further - Ryerson Technical College. There were 20 Grade 9 classes at RH King CI that year. I took six shop classes (including auto, wood, welding, sheet metal, machine and I can't remember what the last one was called but we did stuff with plastics). There were two other course streams - Business and Commerce which basically trained what was then a 100% student body of girls to be secretaries and Arts and Sciences which was the university-destined stream.

In Grade 10 I switched to A&S because there was a new high school opening about a block from where I lived. They had no ST&T, just B&C and A&S. I took the one shop class they offered each year for the rest of high school (and worked on the stage crew. The drop-out rate was very heavy. By the time I reached 13 there were only four classes out of twenty left. The rest had gone to work (or jail).

After working some time as an electrician apprentice, I opted for officer training and, in those days all one needed was junior matric which in the 13 grade Ontario system meant grade 12 while most everywhere else in Canada it was grade 11. In those days it was actually possible to be a high school dropout and earn a living.

There was a reason for this in southern Ontario. Post war there had been a massive program of hydro development in Ontario. There was lots of cheap electricity available and the manufacturing industry expanded by leaps and bounds in the 50s and 60s. If there is one thing that I do believe governments have failed to foster programs of energy development and otherwise also creating a climate in which business, that need labour, can thrive. Similarly, we do fund too many post secondary education programs that are essentially basket-weaving 101 (actually basket weaving might be more productive than the "politics and propaganda in the cinema" that I took one year.)

Getting back to the 2% issue and how do we spend the money to fill the ranks of both the RegF and the ARes. IMHO, dropping the education entry level would be a positive one. I've argued many times in this forum for subsidizing community college training to fill many of our trades with people who would then simultaneously earn a civilian ticket in conjunction with a military skill in exchange for a period of obligatory service. Same for the officer ranks. Take them while they are young, train them as low level leaders and provide advanced education commensurate with their fields such as aeronautic engineering a bit further down in their career for those who have proven themselves and who are destined for higher and better things. And then there is starting a proper warrant officer program to take high school kids and make them technical experts in certain specialist fields in exchange for higher entry level pay equivalent to that of officers. And for heaven's sake - never, ever have people wait for a year to get in or between DP1 courses. Tailor our recruiting and education system to mesh fully with the civilian education system (and yes - that means using the summertime as prime military training time.)

 

[Kirkhill]

Fair enough. I'm not one who spends his time whining online (I say as I type out this reply), but I am part of a generation that did what I was told was right and still can't get ahead.

I started working at 16, and have ever since. I've had two jobs since I was 18. I used them to pay for a history degree, and got myself about 90% of the way to a red seal in carpentry. I came out the business end of that with a mountain of debt from college, tools, etc that took me years of my current job to pay off.

I'm educated, I have experience in multiple different careers and my quality of life is not what I want or expect for the effort and time I've put in. I make enough that I don't struggle, but getting ahead means scrimping every single loonie until I'm not enjoying life, and even then the 'ahead' I'm getting isn't enough. I also make enough that most of the bright ideas and programs to "help Canadians get ahead" don't apply to me.

I'm now at the age where I should be getting married and having kids, and I can afford neither. All I wanted was a good job that paid enough for a single family house, a nice car in the garage and room to grow a family. I have a two bedroom apartment in a garbage building thrown up during Covid I pay a landlord the King's own ransom to borrow, and my second bedroom is stacked to the ceiling with all the green and blue uniform items I'm required to store.

I acknowledge I've got it better than a lot of people my age but I'm still simmering with anger over how the last 10-15 years has gone, and there's no changes coming any time soon regardless of who is in power.



No I won't, my parents put everything they had into getting my brother and I where we are today and I'll likely be funding their retirement. Depends how the house does when it sells. Which means I have an interest in house prices going down AND staying where they are. Even more infuriating.



Has never been a problem. Doesn't feel like anybody in Ottawa gives a rats ass about Canadians like me.

You sound like my kids, R5. And I don't say that derogatorally.

My personal point of inflection is 1972. I figure that is when the future was stolen.

Until that date we were going to space, we were building free energy for everyone with reactors, the green revolution was using science to modify crops and stop famines, cities and rivers were getting cleaner, we were playing with cars and boats, aircraft and hovercraft.

And then along came the Club of Rome and Ehrlichs Population Bomb to convince us we were all evil and needed to stop reproducing in order to save the planet. We went from living in a forgiving world that tolerated experimentation to a limited world that demanded regimentation and control.

We were required to submit to authority to save us all


Only thing is, only the West got the memo. And the only free society on the planet became as authoritarian as the rest.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

You sound like my kids, R5. And I don't say that derogatorally.

My personal point of inflection is 1972. I figure that is when the future was stolen.

Until that date we were going to space, we were building free energy for everyone with reactors, the green revolution was using science to modify crops and stop famines, cities and rivers were getting cleaner, we were playing with cars and boats, aircraft and hovercraft.

And then along came the Club of Rome and Ehrlichs Population Bomb to convince us we were all evil and needed to stop reproducing in order to save the planet. We went from living in a forgiving world that tolerated experimentation to a limited world that demanded regimentation and control.

We were required to submit to authority to save us all


Only thing is, only the West got the memo. And the only free society on the planet became as authoritarian as the rest.

That and ... you know... the Oil Crisis, Fiat currency, and Reganomics.

A lot of the "Post War Golden Age" from 1945 to 1970 was based on the economic security of government regulation. Ofcourse, those facts tend to be glossed over by the far right crowd that want to LARP Leave it To Beaver.

Even the 80s and 90s nostalgia "boom" I grew up in was financed heavily by debt and selling off assets for temporary relief. Everything fell the pieces in the early oughts between 9/11 and the Housing Crash; but the path to the middle class was always paved with a University Degree and a fictional job that was outsourced years prior.

I was funneled into the university or bust route by my father. I flatly refused. I was too immature to make a 45K investment in something I had no idea if I wanted to pursue for my entire life.

I joined the CAF out of spite and somehow, 20ish years later; I'm an Officer, I have a house in the suburbs, 4 kids, and a meager amount of money to spend on things I want. The difference is, I know my journey is an anomaly and I have hooped a few horseshoes along the way.

As for kids not wanting to join, unless they have to; that is this generation and the way they view the world. They have known nothing but global conflict, market instability, pandemics, climate emergencies, and all of it happening in real time on a screen in front of them. They have zero concept of "hope" or planning for the future: they don't feel like they have anything to look forward to.

If the CAF wants to be the employer of choice for these kids, they need to provide immediate benefit; not an education benefit after 8 years or a pension at an eyewatering 25 years.

Offer them good pay, a decent place to live, adventure, and a chance to do cool shit they can put on Instagram. Expect theyre going to fuck off in 5 to 7 years. Make those 5-7 years mean something and set them up to be successful in society. They will encourage others to be part of the mob just by seeing how much it worked out for them.

 

[Kirkhill]

That and ... you know... the Oil Crisis, Fiat currency, and Reganomics.

A lot of the "Post War Golden Age" from 1945 to 1970 was based on the economic security of government regulation. Ofcourse, those facts tend to be glossed over by the far right crowd that want to LARP Leave it To Beaver.

Even the 80s and 90s nostalgia "boom" I grew up in was financed heavily by debt and selling off assets for temporary relief. Everything fell the pieces in the early oughts between 9/11 and the Housing Crash; but the path to the middle class was always paved with a University Degree and a fictional job that was outsourced years prior.

I was funneled into the university or bust route by my father. I flatly refused. I was too immature to make a 45K investment in something I had no idea if I wanted to pursue for my entire life.

I joined the CAF out of spite and somehow, 20ish years later; I'm an Officer, I have a house in the suburbs, 4 kids, and a meager amount of money to spend on things I want. The difference is, I know my journey is an anomaly and I have hooped a few horseshoes along the way.

As for kids not wanting to join, unless they have to; that is this generation and the way they view the world. They have known nothing but global conflict, market instability, pandemics, climate emergencies, and all of it happening in real time on a screen in front of them. They have zero concept of "hope" or planning for the future: they don't feel like they have anything to look forward to.

If the CAF wants to be the employer of choice for these kids, they need to provide immediate benefit; not an education benefit after 8 years or a pension at an eyewatering 25 years.

Offer them good pay, a decent place to live, adventure, and a chance to do cool shit they can put on Instagram. Expect theyre going to fuck off in 5 to 7 years. Make those 5-7 years mean something and set them up to be successful in society. They will encourage others to be part of the mob just by seeing how much it worked out for them.

Very few people have ever voluntarily chosen to become soldiers and sailors.

 

[lenaitch]

That is so true. I started in Grade 9 in what Ontario at the time was called the Science, technology and Trades program which prepared you for the only establishment afterwards which would take you further - Ryerson Technical College. There were 20 Grade 9 classes at RH King CI that year. I took six shop classes (including auto, wood, welding, sheet metal, machine and I can't remember what the last one was called but we did stuff with plastics). There were two other course streams - Business and Commerce which basically trained what was then a 100% student body of girls to be secretaries and Arts and Sciences which was the university-destined stream.

In Grade 10 I switched to A&S because there was a new high school opening about a block from where I lived. They had no ST&T, just B&C and A&S. I took the one shop class they offered each year for the rest of high school (and worked on the stage crew. The drop-out rate was very heavy. By the time I reached 13 there were only four classes out of twenty left. The rest had gone to work (or jail).

After working some time as an electrician apprentice, I opted for officer training and, in those days all one needed was junior matric which in the 13 grade Ontario system meant grade 12 while most everywhere else in Canada it was grade 11. In those days it was actually possible to be a high school dropout and earn a living.

There was a reason for this in southern Ontario. Post war there had been a massive program of hydro development in Ontario. There was lots of cheap electricity available and the manufacturing industry expanded by leaps and bounds in the 50s and 60s. If there is one thing that I do believe governments have failed to foster programs of energy development and otherwise also creating a climate in which business, that need labour, can thrive. Similarly, we do fund too many post secondary education programs that are essentially basket-weaving 101 (actually basket weaving might be more productive than the "politics and propaganda in the cinema" that I took one year.)

Getting back to the 2% issue and how do we spend the money to fill the ranks of both the RegF and the ARes. IMHO, dropping the education entry level would be a positive one. I've argued many times in this forum for subsidizing community college training to fill many of our trades with people who would then simultaneously earn a civilian ticket in conjunction with a military skill in exchange for a period of obligatory service. Same for the officer ranks. Take them while they are young, train them as low level leaders and provide advanced education commensurate with their fields such as aeronautic engineering a bit further down in their career for those who have proven themselves and who are destined for higher and better things. And then there is starting a proper warrant officer program to take high school kids and make them technical experts in certain specialist fields in exchange for higher entry level pay equivalent to that of officers. And for heaven's sake - never, ever have people wait for a year to get in or between DP1 courses. Tailor our recruiting and education system to mesh fully with the civilian education system (and yes - that means using the summertime as prime military training time.)

A final word from me in this off-topic romp. In the North York Board, we had three streams same as yours; ST&T (tech), B&C (business) and A&S (general) spread over 3 lengths, 2, 4 and 5 year (Grade 13). I was a 5 year ST&T and we were bound for university. The 4-year folks were destined for college or the trades (the two year folks were there until the law said they could leave - or as a condition of their probation). We didn't have access to the 'cool' shops like auto, wood or machine; we had to take electrical/electronics and draughting. Our B&C course was more mixed because we had a computer. It took up a huge amount of space and kids tripping in the hall and spilling a box full of keypunch cards was a regular occurrence.

I didn't make it to Grade 13; I went to college at the princely sum of $150/year.

 

[Kirkhill]

A final word from me in this off-topic romp. In the North York Board, we had three streams same as yours; ST&T (tech), B&C (business) and A&S (general) spread over 3 lengths, 2, 4 and 5 year (Grade 13). I was a 5 year ST&T and we were bound for university. The 4-year folks were destined for college or the trades (the two year folks were there until the law said they could leave - or as a condition of their probation). We didn't have access to the 'cool' shops like auto, wood or machine; we had to take electrical/electronics and draughting. Our B&C course was more mixed because we had a computer. It took up a huge amount of space and kids tripping in the hall and spilling a box full of keypunch cards was a regular occurrence.

I didn't make it to Grade 13; I went to college at the princely sum of $150/year.

Same system in Peterborough. I was 5 year streamed from the get go. Because? Expectations.

Grade 9

Autobody, machine shop, welding, electrics, draughting, graphic arts (printing) and, also typing.

By the time I hit Gr 13 I really wanted to read History but knew there was no money in it.... and thus sciences and ultimately food sciences. My dad had contacts that got me summer jobs in the field.

The military? Always wanted to be a soldier, just like my dad, grandads and uncles. But V4 reduced my options. Thus a militia "career".

Expectations and tradition. My kids were raised differently.