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CEOTP (Continuing Ed Officer Trg Plan) 2003-2018 [Merged]

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PuckChaser

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Is the effective date of promotion before or after the start date of the CEOTP transfer? If the date is after, why would his trade waste a promotion on someone who won't be in the trade anymore? They should give that spot to someone who will actually work in the rank in that trade.
 

SpaceNav

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His promo date was 2 Jul and his CEOTP date is 18 Jul.  He will not take the sgt slot from someone else because as soon as he gets commisioned the slot is open again.
 

George Wallace

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That is tough, but a decision that he made.  You may also like to know, that if he fails he will likely come back as a Cpl, if he does have the oportunity to come back at all.  A msg is not necessarily a promotion.  He had two choices and took one.  He now has to live with it. 
 

PuckChaser

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Some would not agree, but he's also taking a promotion... to 2Lt. But why would they promote him for 2 weeks worth of work?
 

George Wallace

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Although there was a promotion msg, was he actually promoted.  A msg authorizing permission to promote is just that.  It will set the effective date of the promotion, but if the member IS NOT promoted, then it is only a piece of paper.  It sounds like the member was given a choice, take the promotion to Sgt or take the promotion to 2Lt and CEOTP.  He made his choice. 

It is not like the Career Mgr wasn't talking to him and his CoC.  This would have all been knowledge that they were all privy to and an offer made to the member. 

To try to fight for the best of both worlds now, after the fact, is wrong.
 

SpaceNav

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He was not told that he would lose his Sgt promotion if he accepted CEOTP.  The entire COC including the CM was blindsided by the promotion cancelation weeks after the member accepted CEOTP.
 

George Wallace

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SpaceNav said:
He was not told that he would lose his Sgt promotion if he accepted CEOTP.  The entire COC including the CM was blindsided by the promotion cancelation weeks after the member accepted CEOTP.


moot points.....Was he or was he not promoted SGT?    If he was not, then this is all for naught.
 

dapaterson

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Applicable references:  DAOD 2002-6 CEOTP; CFAO 49-4 - Career Policy NCMs Reg F; and CFAO 11-6 - Commissioning and Promotion Policy - Reg F.


After a quick look over those three refs, I saw nothing that directly applies to this situation (NCM to officer).  However, both CFAOs state, essentailly, that if you change occupations you are promotable until the date you change occupations - see CFAO 49-4 paras 26-30 and CFAO 11-6 paras 29-31.

While this situation is somewhat different, the overarching policy intent would seem to be "You're promotable until the day you take on your new occupation.".  In this case, I'd suggest the individual inquire (in writing) to the career manager why the promotion message is being rescinded.  The policy as written says he remains promotable until 17 July.  That he'll only spend two weeks in that rank is irrelevant.


Besides, this way he'll be buying drinks to get out of the Jrs mess, into the Sgts mess, and then out of the Sgts mess and into the officers mess, thus supporting NPF.
 

Melbatoast

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I was promoted to PO2 from MS the day before I put on my OCdt slip-ons, so I spent less than 24hrs in my new rank.  The only time I signed something as a P2 was when I picked up some more OCdt slip-ons from stores.  I'm not, however, privy to the exact process that made it happen - I mentioned to my Chief that I would still really like to be promoted before moving on, and it happened.

I suspect it has a lot to do with the level of charity from the career manager.  I consider it a "thanks for the hard work, good luck in the future" gesture that I really appreciate - besides which it's not like I didn't earn it.  As has been mentioned, I didn't take anyone's job, it's more like I made somebody's year.  A guy who wasn't going to be promoted that year got made, too.  The billet doesn't disappear into the officer world along with the member.

Surely this post is of little help, except to show that it has happened (and I've personally seen it happen at least one other time, too).
 

medicineman

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I've seen it happen numerous times to people going UTPNCM to give them a leg up pay wise for their time as an OCdt...never seen it directly before commissioning though.  I suppose it would be nice to be able to say you were able to go into the Sgt's & WO's /C & PO's mess as a memeber before relinquishing your frontal lobe, oops, rank and commissioning, but really don't see any advantage.

:2c:

MM
 

Blackadder1916

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Would the promotion of the individual in question be to substantive rank or (if he is lacking a qualification) to Acting/Lacking?  While my experience with and knowledge of other individuals' experiences is dated (the 1980s when it was OCTP instead of CEOTP), the usual practice back then was to promote if to subtantive rank, but cancel the promotion if the individual was unable to meet all necessary qualifications prior to the date he was appointed OCdt or commissioned.
 

Melbatoast

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medicineman said:
I've seen it happen numerous times to people going UTPNCM to give them a leg up pay wise for their time as an OCdt...never seen it directly before commissioning though.  I suppose it would be nice to be able to say you were able to go into the Sgt's & WO's /C & PO's mess as a memeber before relinquishing your frontal lobe, oops, rank and commissioning, but really don't see any advantage.

:2c:

MM

The mbr still keeps their NCM pay level as a CEO until such time as the officer pay catches up, do they not?  The reasoning would be the same, in my opinion.  I'm not on a DWAN station so am unable to check the CFAO and CBI.

Blackadder below may have a point, however (I was substantive).
 

agc

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Did the promotion to Sgt involve a geographic move that didn't happen as a result of the CEOTP?
 

Disenchantedsailor

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Melbatoast said:
The mbr still keeps their NCM pay level as a CEO until such time as the officer pay catches up, do they not?  The reasoning would be the same, in my opinion.  I'm not on a DWAN station so am unable to check the CFAO and CBI.

Blackadder below may have a point, however (I was substantive).

No, they created new pay categories (he would fall into 2Lt Pay Cat D IPC (the next one higher than his current NCM pay usually differs by dollars) this would continue until promoted Capt.  That said To accept a promotion to Sgt within 16 Days of effective date of commission would be unethical at best. Roger he merited into the promotion bracket for Sgt the CO can deny the promotion within 14 days to DGMC (which is likely in this case). Another thing to keep in mind is he had to merit into the CEOTP program as well (often forgotten part of this method of commissioning). Sounds to me like a case of having his cake and wanting someone else's. My 2Cents
 

agc

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I would guess that the promotion was rescinded because he never actually occupied won't actually occupy a Sgt position in the establishment.

Edited to add:

[QR&O] 11.02 - CONDITIONS GOVERNING PROMOTION

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no officer or non-commissioned member shall be promoted to higher rank unless:

a. there is an appropriate vacancy in the total establishment for the member's component;

b. the member is recommended by the appropriate authority; and

c. the member meets such promotion standards and such other conditions as the Chief of the Defence Staff may prescribe.

(2) In any particular instance or in any given circumstances, the Chief of the Defence Staff may direct that the requirement to meet any promotion standards be waived.

(3) An officer or non-commissioned member who is enrolled or placed in the Special Force may be promoted to temporary or acting rank only.

A little unfair, since some do get the benefit of moving into a higher ranking position prior to appointment to OCdt or promo to 2Lt, but at least he will still get a raise as Arty pointed out.
 

MBeaner

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I learned about this program the other week when talking to a recruiter and finding out that I would be ineligible for ROTP. I'm most of the way completed my mechanical engineering degree (will only have two academic semesters left by the time the next ROTP cycle begins, not the three needed) and had this program mentioned to me as a possible alternative to ROTP.

Reading some of your comments, it seems there is some sort of doubts towards this program and it's advancement opportunities, which stem from however good the degree is if I understand correctly. Would these possible problems still be present for someone coming off of a degree such as mine and into this program? Another reason I'm interested in it is that 5+ of the technical classes (math, statics and dynamics, fluid mechanics, etc) have already been completed through my first degree and I would possibly be able to transfer those credits.

Or are there some other routes that could be followed to be a pilot, other than DEO, ROTP, or this AEAD?
 
A

aesop081

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Once your degree is finished, you could apply for DEO pilot.
 

bradlupa

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The internal ceotp program is good but has its draw backs.... For instance I am in the process with the boos to change trades to pilot as I have my pilots license with commercial and multi engine but I still need to complete a university degree.  That is while I do all my training for what don't have under my current licenses, which does add to the stress of work as durning the day u learn things and at night well it's books for university, as well as visualizing what needs to be corrected for next flight. 

As for being treated as " second class", that is a false statement.  I have a friend who is a captain engineer  and he is treated the same as any other officer.  Remember most people who go this route are taking their commission and have served for many years in the forces... Not to mention have seen operational tours to afghanistan so the are not looked as SECOND CLASS they are looked at as having experience and are switched on...

Also if you can not complete your chosen trade ie fail you have to choose out of a select few trades after the fact and by select few I mean Armoured officer, engineering officer infantry officer and I cannot remember the last so you have to be switched on and willing to put the time into the courses to obtain what you are after...

The selection for pilot is very hard and you have to set your self apart from every other applicant to make the very few positions.  Hence why I got my specific ratings and licenses,  wasn't to make it easier once I. It was so beat the competition out.  12 spots out of 100 applicants or more makes ya think what will work to get where u want..
 

JohnnySea

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Hello,

I'm currently about to enter my third year at Queen's University for a science degree in Math and Economics.  I applied to become a pilot (ROTP) in January after completing my private pilot's license in December of last year.  Went through the entire application process and passed everything except for a rather long delay in the medical portion of ASC due to a minor eyesight issue- three months to be exact..  As a result of this delay, I missed both the first and second round selection dates for ROTP and I'm currently sitting on the merit list to this day.  The recruitment office mentioned this 'new' program (Seneca-RCAF) back in late June and said its great opportunity for me, as the last day to apply is in August.  All I need to do is write the entrance exam (which I have scheduled for Wednesday of next week) and they said I'll be admitted to the program.  It seems really great! $3500/monthly pay after basic, subsidized aviation technology degree (not a Bachelors degree) and rcaf wings in a matter of four years.  The recruiters seem really excited about it, but I have my doubts.  Like a lot of you said above, there seems to be scepticism about career advancement opportunities etc.. I understand this completely.  My current schooling is fine (very expensive) and I would be happy to finish, but military flying is the main goal and this new path seems fine to me.  Opinions?

 
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