CF Service Medals

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Teddy, as always, you are way ahead of me.

Yeah, but I made it all about me, as usual...

Good info on the GCS/CSM business - I had no idea they were mutually exclusive!  As I said earlier, I cannot see the GCS "bars for each mission" idea surviving contact with a future theatre.  I suspect you're right, though - all will become clear shortly with a blizzard of direction.  Many of the issues raised here have been raised repeatedly on the official net.

 

[Gunner]

Good info on the GCS/CSM business - I had no idea they were mutually exclusive!

The last I had heard on this subject was people with the GSM were not to hand it back in so it could be replaced by the GCS.  Having said that, I am way out of date on where all of these issues stand.

I cannot see the GCS "bars for each mission" idea surviving contact with a future theatre.

I don't think it was well understood by the CF leadership what was being proposed other than as a simplified solution to recognize soldiers promptly (which is a good thing).  I remember speaking with an Artillery General in 2005 while in Kabul on this subject and I believe it honestly took him by surprise when I gave him the two medal scenario outlined above.

 

[ModlrMike]

The last I had heard on this subject was people with the GSM were not to hand it back in so it could be replaced by the GCS.  Having said that, I am way out of date on where all of these issues stand.

Only because both are currently awarded for the same theatre or campaign. It is theoretically possible that at some point in the future, some CF members will wear both for having served on different campaigns. If you check the DHH site, there's no mention in the criteria the states only one of the two can be worn at a time.

 

[Gunner]

Only because both are currently awarded for the same theatre or campaign. It is theoretically possible that at some point in the future, some CF members will wear both for having served on different campaigns. If you check the DHH site, there's no mention in the criteria the states only one of the two can be worn at a time.

http://gazetteducanada.gc.ca/partI/2004/20040731/html/decret-e.html

ModlrMike, it's not that a member can't be awarded both.  According to the canadian gazette,

11. (1) The Star and Medal shall only be awarded to a person once, with qualifying service in respect of additional operations being recognized by the award of additional Bars.

(2) No person shall be awarded a Bar to the Star and a Bar to the Medal in respect of the same operation.

If you read para 11, the GCS and Medal can only be awarded once, however, the key phrase is in bold.  If you serve in Camp Mirage, and then serve in the actual theatre of operations, you are supposed to hand in your GSM for a GCS as it is the higher award for the ISAF Bar.  I hope this clears it up for you.

 

[ModlrMike]

I think we're saying the same thing WRT the GCS/GSM for Afghanistan. What I'm saying is that if we operate in another theatre later, there exists the possibility for a member have earned both awards. Para 11(2) clearly states they won't both be awarded in respect of the same operation. It says nothing about being awarded for different operations. Indeed, under current conditions, one could have been awarded the star for Kosovo (Allied Force), and the medal for Mirage (ISAF).

 

[Gunner]

Seen, I agree with you.

 

[Greymatters]

Strictly CF.  When the CF first deployed to Kabul in 03 the soldiers complained that they did not want the NATO Non-Article 5 medal as it was seen as being associated with a less prestigious mission (Bosnia).  

I think thats a bit out of sorts - considering how little the upper levels listen to 'the soldiers' on many important issues, I sincerely doubt 'the soldiers' were instrumental in turning down a NATO medal.  It is more likely that being a new mission area and unique country of operations, the brass with influence wanted a new medal to signify the tour rather than a bar to an old medal... which is similiar to your point but not quite the same...

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I'll back Gunner up here (and he's in a position to know).  The angst from the creation of the NATO "Non Article 5" medal, the relationship to Bosnia, and its potential application to ISAF was a direct factor in how we decided to recognize ISAF service.  The "brass" does listen to soldiers on occasion - not always to the benefit of operations.  In the end the NATO ISAF medal has the same ribbon colours (but different pattern) than the other NA5 gongs, and comes with an ISAF clasp.  I doubt that this was known in 2003.

 

[Gunner]

I think thats a bit out of sorts - considering how little the upper levels listen to 'the soldiers' on many important issues, I sincerely doubt 'the soldiers' were instrumental in turning down a NATO medal.  It is more likely that being a new mission area and unique country of operations, the brass with influence wanted a new medal to signify the tour rather than a bar to an old medal... which is similiar to your point but not quite the same...

I don't think you give the CF leadership credit for how much they listen to soldiers opinions (the difference between your bitching and moaning as opposed to ideas and concerns of merit).  In the private and public sector you will find very few companies whose leadership spends a consdierable amount of their time getting the opinions of the rank and file remaining aware of what is happening throughout their organizations. 

Getting rid of Army Work Dress, Summer DEU, future implementation of the Combat Action Badge and Sacrifice Medal, etc are all based on comments given to CF leadership by soldiers. 

 

[Reccesoldier]

Granted it was an easy tour of duty, but a tour out of country nonetheless... when put that way its hard to argue with having a four year service medal...

But the SSM Nato has been suspended because {finally} we realized that it was being awarded incorrectly to EVERYONE who ever spent 180 days with NATO anywhere, doing anything.  Those guys in Brussels eating caviar and going to the opera getting the same medal as the grunt sitting deployed with 4Bde to be a "speed bump in the Fulda gap"

So the derision that people here are heaping on the SSM was in some ways deserved, but the proposed solution is to create a medal which is essentially another 4year gimme with NO requirement for operational status making it even more reprehensible than the "beer and bratwurst" medal?  The logic escapes me.

 

[armyvern]

So the derision that people here are heaping on the SSM was in some ways deserved, but the proposed solution is to create a medal which is essentially another 4year gimme with NO requirement for operational status making it even more reprehensible than the "beer and bratwurst" medal?  The logic escapes me.

That's another thing that escapes logic ...

The tendancy by some to call it the Beer & Bratwurst medal.

Only one of the multitude of Bars awarded for it ... was applicable to "Beer & Bratwurst". Perhaps, the "Beer & Bratwurst Bar" is more appropriate -- although the term irritates the hell out of me. And the differentiation even with that "Bar" is as per your post above. There was the caviar set ... and then there were the guys & gals manning the Fulda gap. Lucky for us that the big red machine never took any opportunity to do some more tourism around the Fulda gap -- but those troops were sitting there willing to fight and die SHOULD the red machine decide to. How quick some are to write off their contributions simply because nothing happened. We serve in our times. I really fucking hate it when people denigrate the service of others based upon ...

"Well nothing happened during your service, you just sat there eating beer and Bratwurst" ... holy crap over. It'd a whole different ballgame though if the machine had decided to march westwards and found themsleves met in the Fulda by the Beer & Bratwurst set who would have fought just as professionally and honourably as those today find themselves doing in Afghanistan.

The "our generation is better and braver than your generation" attitude that I'm seeing expressed by some these days ... is simply right the fuck out of it.

 

[Greymatters]

But the SSM Nato has been suspended because {finally} we realized that it was being awarded incorrectly to EVERYONE who ever spent 180 days with NATO anywhere, doing anything.  Those guys in Brussels eating caviar and going to the opera getting the same medal as the grunt sitting deployed with 4Bde to be a "speed bump in the Fulda gap"

So the derision that people here are heaping on the SSM was in some ways deserved, but the proposed solution is to create a medal which is essentially another 4year gimme with NO requirement for operational status making it even more reprehensible than the "beer and bratwurst" medal?  The logic escapes me.

I was thinking more in terms of the units at Lahr and Baden; some positions there were fairly soft even if they were speed-bump material (i.e. Battalion hockey team anyone?).  Did not even consider that Brussels-based types were also getting the medal, although not every position there was a caviar/opera position.  You are quite right that many people who got it was part of an abuse of the system, but it also covered a lot of other types of operations where short-term tours added up and no specific medal applied...   

 

[ModlrMike]

That's another thing that escapes logic ...

The tendancy by some to call it the Beer & Bratwurst medal.

Which irritates me to no end. I have two bars on my SSM, and neither is the NATO bar. I was never posted to Germany, so to me, beer and bratwurst have nothing to do with anything.

 

[Greymatters]

I don't think you give the CF leadership credit for how much they listen to soldiers opinions (the difference between your bitching and moaning as opposed to ideas and concerns of merit).  In the private and public sector you will find very few companies whose leadership spends a consdierable amount of their time getting the opinions of the rank and file remaining aware of what is happening throughout their organizations.  Getting rid of Army Work Dress, Summer DEU, future implementation of the Combat Action Badge and Sacrifice Medal, etc are all based on comments given to CF leadership by soldiers.   

I think they get all the credit they deserve.  There's a difference between responding to solicited opinion (i.e. macaroni and peas for breakfast) and ignoring complaints when it doesnt suit them (the 84 pattern rucksacks, the original TV issues, etc.).  

"Getting rid of Army Work Dress, Summer DEU, future implementation of the Combat Action Badge and Sacrifice Medal, etc are all based on comments given to CF leadership by soldiers."
I'll have to go with your word for it, but if true these 'responses' are a small drop in the bucket compared to other long-standing complaints that have not been responded to, or took decades to respond to.  

 

[armyvern]

I was thinking more in terms of the units at Lahr and Baden; some positions there were fairly soft even if they were speed-bump material (i.e. Battalion hockey team anyone?).  Did not even consider that Brussels-based types were also getting the medal, although not every position there was a caviar/opera position.  You are quite right that many people who got it was part of an abuse of the system, but it also covered a lot of other types of operations where short-term tours added up and no specific medal applied...   

Us term types weren't awarded the "Beer & Bratwurst Medal"; we were awarded the "Special Service Medal" with a bar that was applicable to our tour etc ... such as "Alert", "Peace-Paix", "Pakistan 1989-90", "Humanitas" (DART deployments etc), "Ranger". My medal, in no way, shape, or form is connected to beer, Bratwurst or even Europe for that matter.

It is not the "Beer and Bratwurst" medal. But, it does have what some commonly refer to as the "Beer & Bratwurst" bar -- "NATO-OTAN". And even that term, for that bar, is RTFOOI.

 

[armyvern]

Which irritates me to no end. I have two bars on my SSM, and neither is the NATO bar. I was never posted to Germany, so to me, beer and bratwurst have nothing to do with anything.

The last troop, on the last parade, who I overheard talking about "her rack" to another troop who said "yeah, look one's only the Beer & Bratwurst medal" --- still has not recovered from the little red whirlwind that proceed to jack his sorry little ass and correct the errors of his ways.

I know exactly how you feel. And, I'd have been no lesser pissed off had my bar read "NATO-OTAN" --- those boys were willing to fight and die for their country ... it just so happened that there was no war during their time that the government decided that they were going to participate in. We could be having this very fucking discussion 10 years from now.

Sept 11 happened during our times ... and it just so happened that our government DECIDED that we would participate in that little war. That does NOT mean that those troops are any braver, better, or deserving than any other soldier -- even one who they assume was simply in it for the "Beer & Bratwurst". It just means that their government made a choice to let them participate --- THAT is what being a soldier is all about.

Participation in Afghanistan is NOT a reflection of better, more deserving, more honourable soldiers or of better personal/soldiering abilities of today's members --- it's a simple matter of Canada decided we would particpate in this one ... and they didn't base that decision on you being better than your predecessors. Some people seemingly like to forget that little bit.

 

[Gunner]

There was the caviar set ... and then there were the guys & gals manning the Fulda gap. Lucky for us that the big red machine never took any opportunity to do some more tourism around the Fulda gap -- but those troops were sitting there willing to fight and die SHOULD the red machine decide to. How quick some are to write off their contributions simply because nothing happened. We serve in our times. I really ******* hate it when people denigrate the service of others based upon ...

Vern, are you not guilty of denigrating the service of CF members serving at SHAPE HQ in Brussels?

I think they get all the credit they deserve.  There's a difference between responding to solicited opinion (i.e. macaroni and peas for breakfast) and ignoring complaints when it doesnt suit them (the 84 pattern rucksacks, the original TV issues, etc.).

Actually there isn't and when you get opinions from all across the CF you have a wide array of opinions.  Some people think the TV isn't a total POS...the CF buys on a macro perspective and not based on personal preference.

a small drop in the bucket compared to other long-standing complaints that have not been responded to, or took decades to respond to.

Like?

 

[armyvern]

Vern, are you not guilty of denigrating the service of CF members serving at SHAPE HQ in Brussels?

Actually there isn't and when you get opinions from all across the CF you have a wide array of opinions.  Some people think the TV isn't a total POS...the CF buys on a macro perspective and not based on personal preference.

Like?

No. My "beer and bratwurst" term was in quotes I believe.

My caviar statement was in direct ref to the caviar statement that proceeded it -- in that "even the NATO-OTAN bar has differentiations among it" in that one can not assume that even that Bar is applicable only to pers who served in Europe --- ie that to make a statement about "Beer & Bratwurst" regarding the bar is NOT on and NOT warranted (I thought that I made THAT pretty clear -- actually came right out and said it). I am actually quite convinced that had the big red machine come visiting that those referred to as the "caviar" set in SHAPE by some of the fellows in the Fulda set --- that the "caviar set" would have been just as damn busy doing their jobs against that machine.

I did not mean to infer a difference between the service of "Caviar" nor "bratwurst" being different from each other -- but was rather thinking along the lines of Naval personnel who are also awarded that very "NATO-OTAN" bar for shipboard tours with Stanavflorlant etc, and that NONE of their service should be denigrated by any referral to any part of the Medal or the Bar being referred to as "Beer & Bratwurst". NONE = No one's.

I really don't know how many more fucking times I can say it on this forum --- We are ALL volunteers and we ALL serve where and when they tell us to. Period. NO ONE is any more special or deserving than another. Period.

 

[Gunner]

No. My "beer and bratwurst" term was in quotes I believe.

Good.  All this talk of beer and bratwurst has me hungry.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Just to clarify, specially for Vern  :-*

I am the proud wearer of the SSM with NATO bar, having been a speed bump myself for 4 years.  I also wear my CPSM proudly, another medal much derided as "useless" or "unnecessary" because people do not recognize that it was devised and implemented because of a grass roots campaign of the Canadian people who decided that we lowly soldiers, sailors and airmen deserved to be recognized by Canada for the missions we undertook for NATO and the UN.

My point and opinion was best summed up by Sir Winston Churchill.  I've posted this before and my opinion has not changed.

"The object of giving medals, stars and ribbons is to give pride and pleasure to those who have deserved them. At the same time, a distinction is something which everybody does not possess.

If all have it, it is less value.

There must therefore be heart burnings and disappointments on the borderline. A medal glitters, but it also casts a shadow. The task of drawing up regulations for such awards is one that does not admit of a perfect solution. It is not possible to satisfy everybody without running the risk of satisfying nobody."

The suspension of the SSM (NATO) is a tangible example of this sentiment put into practise. And my opposition to a short service medal is due to the fact that it would not be specifically tied to any hardship, operation, merit or exemplary duty.

My favorite medal is the CD, because as someone here said so well, it is the medal that we get for doing our duty all those years when no one is watching.