CF Service Medals

[Teddy Ruxpin]

The CAB (or some such) has been discussed extensively here before.  I am on record as firmly opposing it and have seen nothing recently to change my mind.  Those who claim it won't cause an "us and them" mentality need only to search previous threads on this subject, where serving soldiers were openly dubbed "wogs" during the debate.

Alas, despite all the issues - and there are many - it appears we're going to have to live with it, with all the problems it will cause.  Implementation alone will be a headache of epic proportions, not least of which is determining who actually qualifies and at what level.  My fear is that it will become an issue for career progression - especially in the combat arms - and that we'll have to establish an enormous tracking and administration system in an effort to keep everyone honest.

Who wants a bronze, after all, when the "heroes" are wearing gold.  Bloody hell...

 

[Gunner]

I suspect the sacrifice medal will be retroactive.  How could it not be?

I suspect the CAB will only go back to 2002 which was the start of "combat operations" by the CF in Afghanistan.  Even if it does go back farther Tess, you will only be entitled to a Bronze.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

heres my thinking about the sacrifice medal, when we start issueing it do we start stripping wound stripes, or are we going to give 2 awards for the same thing. Were not talking about 2 awards for the same mission, that in itself given the situation is not unreasonable, I.E. a tour medal and a bravery decoration, but to give both a wound stripe, for wounds recieved in cbt, and a sacrifice medal for wounds recieved in cbt seems a little duplication and a bit more of a feel good award than what it is really intentded for, to recognize those who get wounded on behalf of thier country.  As for the CAB, same as the CIB soldiers will start doing whatever they can to earn one, to raise themselves to god status amonst the ranks, in the end thats what happens. Every soldier see's a guy with a CAB and says "I want to be that guy, a hero, the best soldier in the country" you want to talk proffesional jelousy, thats where it stems from, than it'll become an us against them, those with and those without. And I'll admit I'm bad for it too, when I see a guy at his retirement party of 20 or 25 years and see he has but a CD I start thinking that guy has never left Canada, what kind of soldier/sailor/air type is he.  It's not fair but a natural first reaction.

 

[Dirty Patricia]

Every soldier see's a guy with a CAB and says "I want to be that guy, a hero, the best soldier in the country" you want to talk proffesional jelousy, thats where it stems from, than it'll become an us against them, those with and those without.

I don't think we should consider who might get jealous when we're developing our awards.  Should we get rid of jump wings, ranger tabs, pathfinder torches or all of our medals because somebody might be jealous they weren't there or didn't do something.  We're professionals, perhaps we should act like it.

 

[Reccesoldier]

Who wants a bronze, after all, when the "heroes" are wearing gold.  Bloody hell...

Shades of the Warrior badge anyone?  Remember what the reaction in Cbt Arms units was like to a guy that only made Bronze?  No, no discrimination there. :

 

[Charon]

Well it could just be me but when I look at some one's Cap Badge, collar dogs, or unit flash, thats usually a good enough indication of what they have done.  It is also a good indicator of the respect from me that they've earned.  If some one believes that they deserve a CIB styled badge then more power to them, but I don't.  And yep, I've been on both sides of the fence, 9 years as a Patrica and remustered into a "wog" trade. 

As for the SSM w/ NATO bar,  I consider it a tour, although we did drink our faces off, we were there for a very real reason as were the Brits, the US, and the French (still wondering about that though).  The training that we received there put anything we did in Canada to shame, and we knew that if push came to shove we would probably be track jam trying to stop the soviet thrust.

  Well enough of that babbling from me

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I don't think we should consider who might get jealous when we're developing our awards.  Should we get rid of jump wings, ranger tabs, pathfinder torches or all of our medals because somebody might be jealous they weren't there or didn't do something.  We're professionals, perhaps we should act like it.

Jump wings and Pathfinder torches are qualification badges, ranger tabs are AMERICAN, with the CAB we're not talking about taking a course, regardless of effort required and being awarded a specialist qual badge for it, further more would this be exactly like its brother from the south awarded only to Infantry.  how bout the artillery or engineers or support arms are they less important for recognition.

 

[Michael OLeary]

And I'll admit I'm bad for it too, when I see a guy at his retirement party of 20 or 25 years and see he has but a CD I start thinking that guy has never left Canada, what kind of soldier/sailor/air type is he.  It's not fair but a natural first reaction.

Yup, let’s look down on the guy that got up very day of his life for 20, 25 or more years and put on the uniform and did the jobs he was given. Let’s not appreciate that one’s career doesn’t always intersect with tour opportunities. It’s easy to ignore that someone retiring today with 25+ years spent that proportion of their career (when they were most likely in jobs that would be deployed today) before the CF got busy in the early 90s.  Unless you’re holding his career resume in your hand, you can do that member no greater disservice than presuming he is less of a soldier because he didn’t have a career resume that came with ornamentation.  Many have had career paths that saw them posted out of units just before the unit deployed, or joining a unit just after it returned.  Both officers and NCOs could easily find themselves in jobs where there was no capacity to release them for tours (it’s only recently that units started getting money for Class B backfills, COs used to have to accept the loss).  Others, often the more capable ones, saw themselves losing out to less capable peers, simply because they were better prepared to deal with the increased workload in Canada.  Yes, let’s presume that any member retiring with just a CD chose to avoid tours – it’s just that narrow-mindedness that undermines any sense that each and every job in the CF has purpose, even if you don’t get a medal just for showing up to do it.

 

[PhilB]

further more would this be exactly like its brother from the south awarded only to Infantry.  how bout the artillery or engineers or support arms are they less important for recognition.

You are mistaken. The concept for the CAB is a combat badge. It is not specialized for infantry, or any other combat arms trade. If you are involved in combat (whatever the definition of combat turns out to be) then you would get the badge, regardless of trade.

 

[aesop081]

And I'll admit I'm bad for it too, when I see a guy at his retirement party of 20 or 25 years and see he has but a CD I start thinking that guy has never left Canada, what kind of soldier/sailor/air type is he.  It's not fair but a natural first reaction.

Its not an unfair reaction. Its an ignorant and uneducated one. I have a few medals above and beyond my CD. I got them in my previous life. But make no mistake, i spend alot of time outside Canada and so do my fellow aviators who have always been AF. We dont get medals for what we do, as there arent any in most cases ( or we dont get deployed long enough to qualify for one) but we have done various Ops overseas. The Navy has its own lines of taskings that take the ships to far reaches of the world. So lets not assume that someone with just a CD has never left canada. He/she might have spent more time out there than you.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

I agree fully,  as far as the Navy goes I spent more time out of Canada than in, I still think it is an unfair reaction, ignorant maybe , thats why I shelve the thought immediately, like I said its my first reaction. The next chain of thought is this guy have given all of his adult life to the queen, more than most people give for anything. I am however an opponent of the lets give medals just to give medals train of thought. I was until very recently on track to earn but 2 medals (my swasm that I fell into) and a CD, and I was more than happy to spend my carreer climbimg out of bed and into a well turned out uniform.  Perhaps there should be medals specifically for the navy and AF for accumulated svc outside Canada, as often deployments are not long enough for you guys, for the navy to do a 6 month tour only 3 months is spent in theatre, not long enough for most tours, same with AF for turn arounds, a friend rumoured 2 month rotations is common cso Air crews don't burnout given the workload, a fair assumption I would say.

 

[NCRCrow]

I would like to see some formal recognition for your sea time, similar to the Safe Driving Pin I saw some truckers with on my ILQ.

like 5-12-18 yrs.

Maybe instill some pride and recognition in the sick, lame and lazy!

 

[Dirty Patricia]

Well it could just be me but when I look at some one's Cap Badge, collar dogs, or unit flash, thats usually a good enough indication of what they have done.  It is also a good indicator of the respect from me that they've earned. 

I know lots of Patricia's with a SWASM or GCS that won't qualify for any CAB.  A well, there are lots of Logisiticians, Mechanics, Signallers, Medics, Divers who will qualify.  It is a means to recognize those who have done the job.  At any rate it is coming and it will generate pettiness.  Jealousy by some that don't have it and arrogance by some that do.  It's a matter of ensuring you are professional enough to not fall into either category.

 

[Charon]

DP, if its coming then its coming.  Again, it's something that I don't think is needed, but that is just my opinion.  If a person is jealous of some one who has earned the badge, then they should be taking a long hard look at themselves. 

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

It's not just the jelousey thats the problem an the other side of the coin will be the arrogance that DP was getting at,  which is almost worse, thats where leaders at all levels have to squash both the jelous and the arrogant for the award to work properly, otherwise it becomes an us against them situation that nobody wants.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

becomes an us against them situation that nobody wants

Unfortunately, it already has...

 

[vonGarvin]

I agree that the "us" and "them" situation exists.  During our pre deployment briefings, we are often asked if we've been to Afghanistan.  I raise my hand.  Then they ask "Oh, but who's been to Khandahar".  Then, in the IED lecture, they use as an example of a successful Taliban strike on ISAF, they mention the bombing of the bus in Kabul in 2003.  June 2003.  Yep, the safe part, the very road I travelled daily in my iltis/lsvw/LAV 3. 

(Funny, they asked once if we'd been "over there", to which I raised my hand, then they said "then you've been to Cyprus", to which I proudly announce "yes, and I even got a medal for it!")

As an aside, saying that our NATO forces in Europe "drank beer and ate bratwurst" cheapens their service and contribution in winning the Cold War.  In 1989, Honecker could have made a very different decision that could have seen the forces of the Group of Soviet Forces Germany heading west.  The fact that they didn't means nothing.  Maybe it means everything.  Now, Honecker didn't look west, see 4 CMBG on a map and decide against going "old school commie" on those trying to get over the wall, but he did see NATO.

Hell, we give medals to people who don't leave KAF.  Should they get a second class medals?  (That's rhetorical - no need to answer).

Just my thoughts.

 

[1feral1]

ICB, ACB, CAB, CIB, or whatever.

It's an acknowledgement of being at the pointy end. The US CIB has been around for decades. Australia has has had their infantry version for decades.

The biggest weed up RAInf asses in the past was that non "031's" were getting it, and thats why the ACB was brought into service. So RAInf only for the ACB, and all other Corps ACB. Two types, same criteria, different badges so RAInf does not lose its identity.

Canada's governemt decides on a new award in which they feel is just and deserving.

Be thankful an acknowledgement such as this is being put forward in the first place.

Sheesh guys, come on, just wear (when it comes out) it and soldier on. 

In the Aussie military culture, many have them and many do not. There is none of this us/them mentality. When I see someone with the ICB or ACB, I just make a mental note, and good on them for earning it. That was long before I got mine.

For the us/thems out there time to grow up.

Soldiering on in yet another tropical rain storm...

Wes

 

[John Nayduk]

Well said, Wes. 

 

[PhilB]

I think that this is somewhat of a ridiculous argument. The award has already been approved. It is just a matter of time before it is implemented. All those the are arrogant, even now, not having a badge will to continue to be arrogant. All those that are jealous at not having been in combat, regardless of badges, will continue to be jealous. Life goes on.