CFB Cold Lake Thread- Merged

[OldSolduer]

In the late 70s the media was reporting that soldiers were going on welfare etc to make ends meet. I reckon every few years this happens.

 

[exgunnertdo]

I know it's a few posts ago, but on the relationship between the Cpl's salary and the average for the community.  I couldn't help noting that the average wage is higher than a Cpl's in a few communities (I was Googling last night because of this story and a lengthy string of comments on a Facebook post).  In fact, the median income in Canada as a whole is higher than a Cpl's

Canada - 72,240
Kingston - 79,140
NCR (QC side) - 84,410
NCR (ON side) - 97,010
Winnipeg - 74,040

Yet in Toronto, with a pretty high cost of living (especially on the shelter side of it), the median income is only 69,740

Source - http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

Kingston, NCR and Winnipeg don't get PLD.  Alberta has a very low tax rate compared to the rest of Canada, so those posted to Cold Lake are getting a bonus that the rest of us don't get (since I am told that one of the reasons the maritimes gets PLD is because of the high taxes). 

I realize the cost of living is high in Cold Lake.  But a Cpl in Cold Lake is making a similar wage in relation to the "median" income in other places in Canada.  And those places don't a dime of PLD.

Also note that the salaries referred to in the earlier article, as well as the Stats Can numbers are family income, not individual salaries.  So we are comparing apples to a different variety of apples.  Spousal employment is a whole other topic though.

(edit to fix typo)

 

[Halifax Tar]

I know it's a few posts ago, but on the relationship between the Cpl's salary and the average for the community.  I couldn't help noting that the average wage is higher than a Cpl's in a few communities (I was Googling last night because of this story and a lengthy string of comments on a Facebook post).  In fact, the median income in Canada as a whole is higher than a Cpl's

Canada - 72,240
Kingston - 79,140
NCR (QC side) - 84,410
NCR (ON side) - 97,010
Winnipeg - 74,040

Yet in Toronto, with a pretty high cost of living (especially on the shelter side of it), the median income is only 69,740

Source - http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

Kingston, NCR and Winnipeg don't get PLD.  Alberta has a very low tax rate compared to the rest of Canada, so those posted to Cold Lake are getting a bonus that the rest of us don't get (since I am told that one of the reasons the maritimes gets PLD is because of the high taxes). 

I realize the cost of living is high in Cold Lake.  But a Cpl in Cold Lake is making a similar wage in relation to the "median" income in other places in Canada.  And those places don't a dime of PLD.

Also note that the salaries referred to in the earlier article, as well as the Stats Can numbers are family income, not individual salaries.  So we are comparing apples to a different variety of apples.  Spousal employment is a whole other topic though.

(edit to fix typo)

It really comes down to the cost of living.  You can't compare Kingston to Cold Lake to Halifax to Yellowknife.  They have very different sets of circumstances that have a knock on effects with the local area's cost of living. 

As well the family income is a great way to look at this as it shows the median house hold income of which this Cpl belongs.  You will see his sign says "Posted to Cold Lake with a family please spare change"  or words to that effect.

 

[dapaterson]

So an entry level rank is below the median income.  Is this the Lake Wobegon Armed Forces, where everyone is above average?

In addition, on the apples vs other types of fruits discussion, CAF members receive benefits such as comprehensive medical for themselves, the Public Service medical plan for their dependents, and one of the richest pension plans in the country; if we want to discuss compensation, we need to look at the full package.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So an entry level rank is below the median income.  Is this the Lake Wobegon Armed Forces, where everyone is above average?

In addition, on the apples vs other types of fruits discussion, CAF members receive benefits such as comprehensive medical for themselves, the Public Service medical plan for their dependents, and one of the richest pension plans in the country; if we want to discuss compensation, we need to look at the full package.

You view Cpl as an entry level rank ? 

How do you see upping the PLD for those posted to Cold Lake having a reverse effect on the CAF benefits plan ?

Perhaps PLD should be based on salary and only available to those below a certain income level.

 

[exgunnertdo]

It really comes down to the cost of living.  You can't compare Kingston to Cold Lake to Halifax to Yellowknife.  They have very different sets of circumstances that have a knock on effects with the local area's cost of living. 

As well the family income is a great way to look at this as it shows the median house hold income of which this Cpl belongs.  You will see his sign says "Posted to Cold Lake with a family please spare change"  or words to that effect.

True on the cost of living being hard to compare - my comparison was only because of the earlier posts about the fact that the Cpl's salary is so much below the average for the area.  The implication being that the Cpl can't afford what the "average" family can afford in Cold Lake.  The Cpl in Ottawa and Kingston is in the same situation, minus the benefit of PLD, no PST, and low provincial income tax. 

My point is only that I don't think a Cpl in Cold Lake is in a significantly different position than a Cpl in other parts of Canada.  A Cpl might have to tighten their belt a bit, but I don't see where the poverty argument is valid.

 

[dapaterson]

You view Cpl as an entry level rank ? 

How do you see upping the PLD for those posted to Cold Lake having a reverse effect on the CAF benefits plan ?

Perhaps PLD should be based on salary and only available to those below a certain income level.

Yes, it's an entry level rank.  Cpl is automatic in 4 years, often granted after 3.  Not a rank tied to senior leadership or management or high level skillsets.  I would argue that a wider range of IPCs for Cpls should be in place, but that could result in pay / rank inversions (say, a 10 year Cpl might make more than a junior Sgt).

(For officers, OCdt/2Lt/Lt have all become entry ranks, and Capt as well, which is unfortunate.  Lt should be the equivalent of Cpl - trained and employable, with merit-based promotion to all ranks beyond.  At $74K/year, Capt should not be treated as an automatic promotion)

PLD needs a top to bottom overhaul.  Everyone seems to think that their cost of living is above average, a mathematical impossibility.  But any change will see winners and losers, hence the reluctance to change it & make even more folks upset (don't forget, the Treasury Board is made up of cabinet ministers).

I would not be surprised to see PLD adapted and changed to be scaled accoring to rank / income.  It would be a popular move, if not a fair one.

 

[Halifax Tar]

True on the cost of living being hard to compare - my comparison was only because of the earlier posts about the fact that the Cpl's salary is so much below the average for the area.  The implication being that the Cpl can't afford what the "average" family can afford in Cold Lake.  The Cpl in Ottawa and Kingston is in the same situation, minus the benefit of PLD, no PST, and low provincial income tax. 

My point is only that I don't think a Cpl in Cold Lake is in a significantly different position than a Cpl in other parts of Canada.  A Cpl might have to tighten their belt a bit, but I don't see where the poverty argument is valid.

There is a 25k discrepancy between Kingston and Cold Lake avg house hold incomes. 

And as for the NCR I would surmise the opportunity for spousal employment is much greater there so you would see less 1 single cpl pay incomes. 

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yes, it's an entry level rank.  Cpl is automatic in 4 years, often granted after 3.  Not a rank tied to senior leadership or management or high level skillsets.  I would argue that a wider range of IPCs for Cpls should be in place, but that could result in pay / rank inversions (say, a 10 year Cpl might make more than a junior Sgt).

(For officers, OCdt/2Lt/Lt have all become entry ranks, and Capt as well, which is unfortunate.  Lt should be the equivalent of Cpl - trained and employable, with merit-based promotion to all ranks beyond.  At $74K/year, Capt should not be treated as an automatic promotion)

PLD needs a top to bottom overhaul.  Everyone seems to think that their cost of living is above average, a mathematical impossibility.  But any change will see winners and losers, hence the reluctance to change it & make even more folks upset (don't forget, the Treasury Board is made up of cabinet ministers).

I would not be surprised to see PLD adapted and changed to be scaled accoring to rank / income.  It would be a popular move, if not a fair one.

You get no arguments from me.

 

[Quirky]

I visited Cold Lake for a few days recently, and I noticed a lot of shiny new pick up trucks, snowmobiles, ATVs, fishing boats... sometimes all in the same PMQ driveway.

This means what, exactly?

 

[OldSolduer]

What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up.

This IS NOT to say this Cpl has done that.

 

[ModlrMike]

What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up.

This IS NOT to say this Cpl has done that.

Agreed. We also don't know what level of debt this fellow brought with him to Cold Lake. The cost to service his debt is not a factor in determining his base shelter cost.

 

[Quirky]

What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up.

Agreed, however I haven't met anyone living in the Q's complaining about lack of money due to toys, if they are then its their fault. This Cpls case seems to be very common however and judging by his low-budget chevy and canoe, he isn't exactly living the fancy life on base. I'm not going to pass judgement on individual financial situations, there are way to many factors involved - both spouses income, do they have children, did a relative die and leave them money, etc. In the end rent is still way too high and the release rate in Cold Lake is increasing, but with our current leadership in Ottawa I don't see any changes coming unless incidents like this happen more frequently and the MSM gets involved.

 

[Halifax Tar]

What it means is that those toys aren't free. They have to be paid for, and if you're busking because of your toys in driveway, your priorities are mixed up.

This IS NOT to say this Cpl has done that.

So really the original post was pointless just like the one claiming he had installed hot tub on his PMQ. 

 

[SupersonicMax]

So an entry level rank is below the median income.  Is this the Lake Wobegon Armed Forces, where everyone is above average?

In addition, on the apples vs other types of fruits discussion, CAF members receive benefits such as comprehensive medical for themselves, the Public Service medical plan for their dependents, and one of the richest pension plans in the country; if we want to discuss compensation, we need to look at the full package.

We get posted often.  That's the reality of the military and most accept it.  This reality means that spousal employment is going to be often very difficult.  Employers, even though they shouldn't and cannot discriminate on that basis, will choose a non-military spouse over a military spouse.  This is our spouses' reality, regardless of rules, regulations and law.  This needs to be compensated as well. 

Processes and systems are in place for 2 things:  supporting mission and/or supporting people.  If a process doesn't so that, it is not effective.  To me, PLD needs to improve. The "problem seen/problem solved" mentality seriously needs to go away and leaders need to shift their focus to what really matters.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I don't agree with any military member going to the media. At the end of the day he felt strongly enough to do what he did and will face the consequences. Perhaps this bring to light whats going on at Cold Lake and improve things for pers in hardship postings.

And I just heard a rumour that the Army Commander (LGen Hainse) has issued a memo (e-mail?) to his staff (the whole Army?) saying just that: don't talk to the media.

 

[OldSolduer]

And I just heard a rumour that the Army Commander (LGen Hainse) has issued a memo (e-mail?) to his staff (the whole Army?) saying just that: don't talk to the media.

I have not seen this yet, but this would not surprise me. I will most likely see it tomorrow.

My question is - now that we have accepted the fact that the media is always around, will we regress to the "media hates us, we will have nothing to do with them" attitude that was prevalent in the 80s?

 

[Edward Campbell]

In principle, and largely because of my age, and, in even larger measure because of my personal disdain for most (not all!) journalists, I agree with Chief Stoker. I have seen the media distort what they are told by military people who know ~ sometimes just through simple ignorance, sometimes from an anti-military bias, and, sometimes, most often, just to "sex up" a story. I have also seen how fickle the media is: they will "run with" a story only until something newer, shinier comes along ~ they're like crows.

But, Jim, you're right. We You need the media on your side and "switching off" doesn't help. But this is a complex story ~ and I reemphasize that none of us know it all ~ and it will be hard to explain in the sorts of intellectual bite sized snacks that journalists need, today. So in this case it is best to leave it to the public affairs people. I'm assuming that's what LGen Hainse (if my rumour is true) has in mind.

 

[blacktriangle]

Oil patch pay is very competitive. It has to be. If you compare someone with 8 years of experience in drilling etc, many can be making twice the monthly net wage of a Spec 1 Cpl IPC 4 who has worked an equal amount of years for the CAF. This is a fact. There is overtime, daily subsistence allowance etc. So in theory, an oil rigger who works for 8 months and is laid off for 4 months a year still comes out ahead of our Cpl if we are just looking at up front pay.

That's a working class job you can do with little initial training or qualification...kind of like joining as a Pte. Only difference is the Oil Rigger chose to go there, the AVN Tech got posted in. Obviously there is more to it than that, and we all chose to be in the CAF. I'm just saying Alberta truly is a tad different than Petawawa etc.

 

[kratz]

CBC.ca

A version of the memo is posted online by CBC already.