Comparing the Regiments (PPCLI, RCR, and R22eR) and thier bases

[3rd Herd]

Been doing some quarters hunting in Calgary and went to take a look at the old base. I found it interesting that the bldg in which I did my Int crse is now a school. Seeing above post for the first time I think in military history the RCR and the PPCLI are equal. The above post mentions the redevelopment of London which I have found out equals the redevelopment of Sarcee barracks. I wonder were the money went from this redevelopment given that the person who oversaw the Calgary one was recently featured as an up and coming millionaire, Business Smarts. As for Work Point there has been plans and rumors floating around since the 3rd left. One of the major stumbling blocks with Work Point and redevelopment is someone had the brains to have several of the buildings designated as heritage sites. The MP guard Room at the front gate, the Mortar plt blding across from it, the Pnr plt "castle". As for long bus rides Victoria to Fort Lewis does not compare to the short Edmonton to Wainwright trip. As for training out of Work Point the powers to be never realized the potential the island had to offer and in such was never used to it's fullest extent. I chuckle over all the new "urban" warfare sites being built when twenty minutes of Work Point there was a complete town including buildings and factories available. Again a developer bought it for a song made his fortune.

 

[Gunner]

3rd Herd,

The DND land from Calgary was given to Canada Lands Corporation (CLC) for development.  Profit from CLC goes into General Revenue for the Government.  If "the person" who oversaw the Calgary develpment is a millionaire, he/she probably made it by heard work and using their initiative.

As for training out of Work Point the powers to be never realized the potential the island had to offer and in such was never used to it's fullest extent. I chuckle over all the new "urban" warfare sites being built when twenty minutes of Work Point there was a complete town including buildings and factories available. Again a developer bought it for a song made his fortune.

The island was no place for a mechanized battalion.  Your thoughts on local urban ops sites, 20 mins from Work Point, don't take into consideration PILT.  If it was that desirable a location for a developer... its probably not the location for an urban ops site.

Cheers,

 

[GO!!!]

Personally, I find trg areas seperated from formed units to be the most desireable, for the simple reason that training must then be planned in advance, well deserved field pay given, and units able to practice a move and real seperation from their home bases (no "oops I forgot my gloves - I'll just have my wife drop them off")

I think that it places pressure on the chain of command to actually accomplish something in the field, because there is a finite amount of time available there, so there is less training just for the sake of training, with no specific endstate in mind.

When units have to travel to train, the training is generally fast and furious, and there are specific goals in mind. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has experienced an "unfocused" ex, where the same basic low level skills are practiced ad nauseum because the Bn ran out of money on day 11, so now we have to do dry section attacks for 3 days while we wait for __________.

 

[geo]

GO...
having training areas in your back yard has a lot of merit. You can only work indoors for a certain period of time. The oportunity for the Tp Commander to validate a teaching point with an afternoon/day in the field is great.

Poor planning and organisation should be reflected in the Superior's PER... as he exceeds his capabilities. From what I have seen, current CLS and CDS have little use for people who fail in planning.

 

[GO!!!]

Geo,

I agree, but I think that Edmonton has it just about right.

We can go to the ranges and shoot all of our small arms, we can navigate around the base(small crse though), there is a FIBUA site that is getting better and better, rappel tower, two DZs, a Helo sqn, a pool, an airstrip, obstacle course, drivng track, numerous well equipped gyms and rec facilities, and all on the edge of a major city, where my spouse works.

When we enter our yearly trg cycle, we can start with PWT 1,2 and 3 right here in Edmonton, along with doing inter operability with other units, Jumping onto Buxton, practice urban driving techniques on the runway, and take advantage of the savings of not having to feed troops and pay them TD in the Shacks in Wx. When the field trg portion starts, we move straight into the field, train hard for a few weeks, then get on the buses and go straight back to Edmonton, shower at the lines, and drive home. THAT is quality of life - where you are able to accomplish all of your trg objectives and still spend a reasonable amount of time with your family.

I see absolutely no reason to banish entire units to the hinterlands to achieve some ambiguos goal of "regimental spirit", or to ease the Lt's filling of the "develops subordinates" bubble, especially given the huge attrition rate that such a posting as Wainwright would cause. Edmonton has lots of space to train in - especially at Pl minus size.

In short, the training benefit realised by posting entire units to rural areas is offset by the propensity of those units to suffer high rates of attrition and a exceptionally low morale.

 

[ArmyRick]

I see merits to both arguments. I was based in Kapyong barracks for 5 years and have spent 2 years in Petawawa. Its more cost effective for battalions to be in a base like pet or gagetown. However from what I observed at 3 PPCLI when I dropped by was a battalion with relatively high morale (mind you the week before they go on Xmas leave may not really count). So there has to some how be a balance between quality of life and cost effective valuble training. I could see how Edmonton and wainwright situation is a compromise. GO!!!, from what you are saying,  3 VP does mostly collective training in wainwright?

I do remember in '95, Lt Col Turner complaining about how it cost us a million dollars to move the battalions veh and eqmnt to W-wright for an ex.

I do remember one big waste of time on this particular ex, for the first 3 days the platoons were out practicing platoon formations and movement in M113s (Not attacks, just movement). The sections sat in the back and rotted away.
The dismounts could have been out doing some other training.  All it would have taken was a little thought on part of the officers. I said that back then and some slightly more expirienced troops said "shut your mouth FNG". Oh well.

 

[geo]

I do remember one big waste of time on this particular ex, for the first 3 days the platoons were out practicing platoon formations and movement in M113s (Not attacks, just movement). The sections sat in the back and rotted away.
The dismounts could have been out doing some other training.  All it would have taken was a little thought on part of the officers. I said that back then and some slightly more expirienced troops said "shut your mouth FNG". Oh well.

Ahhhh yes - the joys of riding around in vehicles for little or no training value... been there - thank god I aren't doing that anymore.

 

[GO!!!]

GO!!!, from what you are saying,  3 VP does mostly collective training in wainwright?

In my experience, we do most of the "bread and butter" (jungle lanes, section, pl, coy, live and dry and the once-in-a-blue-moon-Bn) in Wainwright, alot of the workup trg happens around the garrison, as do the PCF courses(until the field phase), rappelling, FIBUA at the end of the runway and ranges, and of course jumping into Buxton (you can see the lines from the air ;D)

Most of the cool stuff is done in Ft. Lewis, Ft. Bragg, Victorville, Camp Lejeune etc. I dont think I would be too off base to say that most of my cool training that has not revolved around "up he sees me down" has been done in the states, simply due to the better facilities there, and the cooperativeness and generosity of our hosts (USMC/Rgrs etc.) The R and Rs in Vegas and Seattle don't hurt either!

 

[3rd Herd]

GO
you forgot the 1 2 3 club in Lewis and the foxhole in Pendleton. But you hit the nail on the head with "thanks to the cooperativemess and generosity of our hosts". I made many trips to both areas along with a few others. We could not have been treated better, as a matter of fact we were treated better down there than in some other parts of Canada. Yes it was a long drive and yes we had to deal with boarders and ferries but we were working with Cobra gunships,jungle lanes, A 10s and a host of other kit that prior to was only seen on TV. Lastly if it had not been for the excellent staff and treatment at the naval regional medical center in Camp Pendleton yours truly would be pushing four wheels instead of running marathons.
my buck and a half

 

[ArmyRick]

I have also had a blast in Camp Lejeune and Fort Irwin, again thank you to our american brothers 

 

[geo]

Have also had many training sessions down south.
What baffles me is that we believe (not wrongly) that we are not well treated / looked after on our own bases.
You have to wonder when the CLS and the CDS will wake up, smell the coffee AND have a bit of a chit chat with our people - to ensure that our training facilities are provided with a smile and a lot of cooperation.... instead of bellyaching, griping and teeth grinding.

 

[GO!!!]

I think it (the difficulty we encounter on our bases) is due to the lack of civilian contractors.

Many of the facilities in the States are staffed with civvies. They exist to support you, and they are on contracts. If they neglect to do their job, or are "difficult" about it, they get a complaint, and maybe next year, no job. Here we give everyone "permanent full - time" status, and union protection, so they know they are invincible, and as a result, don't do their job as zealously as they could.

Two examples;

1) The Lockheed Martin civvies in Wx have been nothing but pleasant to work with IME. Pleasant, accomadating, and expecting last minute changes like "I know we asked for 20 targets in the origional request, and for six hours, but now we need 110, and for 96 hours straight" the reply? "No problem, Jim will be happy to get the overtime"

2) A whole company comes into Camp Wainwright after a long Winter Patrol Ex. Due to the Base Tpt getting lost, the whole coy is late for a scheduled breakfast. The OC politely asks (I was standing right there) if the troops can grab some toast and fruit seeing as the steam line is closed, and it is five minutes after breakfast closes. The Cook (Cpl) rolls his eyes, and says "sure, why not, why should the rules apply to the 3rd Bn?"  The OC launches, so all the troops start getting bagels and oranges, only to be screamed at by the KO, that it was not permitted to take an orange out of the kitchen unless you were paying for it on a meal plan. So the whole coy had to line up, and throw all of the food out, while getting a lecture from the 300lb civvie chick about "the importance of meeting our timings". More "words" were exchanged, and we left.

Maybe I'm just looking for problems here, but in Ft. Lewis the same thing happened, and the cooks turned the steam line around and said "fill yer boots, it all goes in the trash anyhow!" They also handed out the comment cards while we were eating, and asked us to fill them out while warming up our coffees and calling for seconds!

Thoughts?

 

[Michael OLeary]

One aspect of some American training bases, this relates to some of the National Guard bases I have been on, is that their funding depends on how much training they have supported. Without use, they would receive a bare subsistence maintenance allowance, and be in danger of being closed. While Canadians pay for what they use, at the end of the year, the totals of "troops days supported" doesn't differentiate between whose troops when they are looked at for which bases are getting used and which aren't. It simply comes down to the fact that the bases providing desired services and training facilities get the visiting units, while others who don't meet needs do not, and therefore the purpose of their existence comes into question.

I suspect the flavour of the "service industry" attitudes on many of our bases would quickly change if base funding and, therefore jobs, depended upon ensuring the repeat business from those "customers" that have the flexibility to choose where they train.

 

[axeman]

Hey GO!!! that was a thing i was thinking about bringing up . that the SUPPORT staff is willing ot support you in your endevours. not be there when its convenient to them . the mentality that we will support them when it falls into out time frame  isnt what makes a good working enviroment . its the understanding the 100 + trrops need to eat . if the meal line has just closed it should not present the staff much of a problem to all them to get toast or other  consumibles [sp] on their own as long as its in a small area to clean . with the US bases they do realize that if there are negative reports on a service area they will look into it and see what went wrong and how can they improve on it . i think the American officer corp. is fairly good what with a way higher % of personel  that have been NCO's  then get a commision . not calling down our officer corps but they see things differnt then ours do ..  later when they make STAFF lvl rank and one of these complaints come across the board  they can think about when they wanted toast and were booted out  of the mess hall.. or other instance like that and try to see an alternitive . Ive always called them a giant herd but jees you work with what you get . the thing that im trying to say is that down in the states they ARE THERE TO SUPPORT YOU  not allow you to be here at there inconveniancing their lives  it seems ... and that makes a huge differnce in the support thats given and the way the EX works  in the end  . one of those transperant [sp]things....    my 2 cents

 

[geo]

been there, done that, have had my driver go into town for the necessary "consumables" to feen the troops (one time too many)

All in all, have not had too much problem for services in Valcatraz & Gagetown over the last several years. Maybee you can teach an old dog new tricks after all........

 

[ERIK2RCR]

And now for something completly different.

I cannot comment much on our PPCLI or R22eR bretheren, I'll tell you a little about life at " beautifull " CFB Gagetown. Largest training area in the British Commonwealth, so it's a damn good thing we're mounted and not light, We just got 2 brand new state of the art 60 million dollar buildings to work from, so now there is nowhere to hide, everything under one roof. The training callender is heavy right now in prep for roto 1-07 but usually it's pretty relaxed here, we support the Combat Training Centre so erveryone is always scattered to the wind, and we only run 2 battalion sized ex's a year, wnd the odd company sized op once in a while. The Base is pretty big, centered in the town of Oromocto, which is pretty much all military. Fredericton is 15 mins away and moncton is around 45. They're both fair sized cities, and Halifax is only 3.5 hours if you want to get away for the weekend. Nothing beats the life of a Royal.

 

[Gunner]

Largest training area in the British Commonwealth, so it's a damn good thing we're mounted and not light,

Buddy, you are way off base with that comment.  Go take a look at CFB Suffield.

Nothing beats the life of a Royal.

If you like painting rocks! 

Cheers,

 

[George Wallace]

Buddy, you are way off base with that comment.  Go take a look at CFB Suffield.

Not Really.  Gagetown is the largest "Training Area".  Suffield is the Largest Area......not all of it is open to Training, being tied up with DRES.

 

[Michael OLeary]

... and how much of it is currently restricted wildlife preserve?

 

[Gunner]

You eastern fellows (I was going to say creeps and bums  ) need to get out west more often...

http://www.pnr-rpn.ec.gc.ca/nature/whp/nwa/suffield/dd02s01.en.html

Canadian Forces Base Suffield is 2,690 km2 of grassland divided into different areas for various uses. The largest area of the Base, 1,700 km2, is used for military training.

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/cfb_gagetown/organ/today_e.asp

CFB Gagetown encompasses over 1100 square kilometres and measures up well to its requirements.

Pretty close!