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The largest restructure of the Canadian forces ever! open discussion to changes

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crayon851

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These are the questions which I'm sure everyone has asked themselves at one point in their military careers

Why do officers make so much?
What trades are considered specialist trades and why do they make so much?
What trades are necessary?
Why does the army laugh at the air force and navy (exception, pilots)

There are a few other questions but you pretty much get the point of what direction I'm heading off in.

First, lets start off the discussion with the basics, basic training.

Basic training is a good introductory to the army, it prepares you for your trade-specific courses later on and gets you into the mindset that you'll need to succeed. It filters out those who are not suited for the canadian forces. Though for some trades where being of high physical standard is necessary, basic training is a bit lacking. Everyone in the canadian forces should have a certain physicality and this is one of the things it should be most anal about. Basic training also serves the purpose of reducing expenditure  of resources in the future, by removing those individuals who definitely do not want to be apart of the military. Basic training definitely has a purpose and can be improved on. 

The issue I have with basic training is PAR and PAT, these two "platoons" serves the purpose of allowing individuals to milk the government for money and thus reduces the quality of training and prospective pay of individuals dedicated to the military. PAT platoon is not really an issue, since everyone is prone to injury. PAR on the hand is a waste of time and money. If they want to leave, the forces should just give them their return flight and leave it at that. There are a tonne of individuals on PAR who are kept there for months collecting pay which is a waste of resources for the military. The money spent keeping them there for a couple months is far greater than giving them their return ticket. Consider this, lets say theirs approximately 10% drop rate from basic training of and 2000 recruits every year in St.jean, which is approximately 200 people. Now these people are kept here 1-3 months. They all get paid the same as a private which is approximately  $1300/month and they are kept here for around 2-3 months. This translates into a monthly yield of approximately (averaged down for sake of argument) $400,000/ month and over a year about 4.8million; multiplied by the number of bases that train basic recruits. I think theres approximately 2-3 bases like this, so thats anywhere from 9million- 12million a year. This is low balling too. There are other factors to consider as well such as, logistics involved and paper work which all have a monetary value. To average it out, I'd say it costs approximately 20million a year just to hold these recruits  for a month. I haven't even mentioned RFT, this is something that should be removed from the military. Instead of wasting money and other resources to send them to a fat camp; they should have to pass a physical test at the training center before being sent anywhere. Anyway, Over 2-3 bases thats about 60-80 million dollars that can't be put towards an increase in pay, housing, family support/resources, kit and etc. Its not that the army is underfunded, its how the money is spent. Instead of keeping these individuals for a month which is also a waste of their time, they should be sent home immediately. With all this taken into consideration, I'd say that 60 - 80 million is still a low ball of everything that is wasted.  Mind you the number used in the pay is the NET pay, so the you can expect a much larger expense.

After graduating from basic, you are then sent to your trade specific courses. These courses also have platoons similar to PAR and PAT and generally generate the same effect. Individuals unfit for a trade should be VOT'd right away or those who want to leave, should be given that ticket home and leave it at that. All the training centers generally incur the same expenses. For example, the infantry training center in meaford ontario had more people on their PAR and PAT platoons than there were people on course. So lets low ball it and say theres approximately 50 voluntary releases, not to mention other releases, you're now looking at approximately 5 million a year just for this one base. Again, training bases specific to the infantry generally incur the same costs and resources. Over the three training bases in canada (PPCLI,V12, RCR) you'd probably expect about $15 million total. Then you'd take this number and apply it to all the other training bases specific to the other 40-50 trades. So as you can see, just from training centers alone there is a large sum of cash that is wasted. Just from my estimates you're looking at approximately $600,000,000. Overall I think training resources and money spent on voluntary releases is somewhere around $800,000,000 - 1 billion. This is taking everything into consideration. My solution, send these individuals home right away, it'd cost maybe $1000 at most for a return flight. This in turn save the government 30%, which is around $240,000,000. Of course this can be put towards more useful things, such as pay increases, housing, equipment. For example, the 'shacks' in Petawawa could use an upgrade.

What trades yield specialist pay? Why do they make so much more? The reasoning as to why they make more is simple. They do more work and are more skilled than the average trade and its a way of keeping people from leaving the military after becoming certified or fully trained. Theres a simple solution to this, contracts are designed to be kept not to be broken without penalty. If an individual signs a 5 year contract to be a water tech, then the individual should be obligated to keep this contract. Should he/she choose to break this contract, there should be some sort of nominal fee. For example, half a years salary, that way the individual would be inclined to finish working that year and there is ample time for paper work to go through. Specialists should only make 5%-10% more not 20-30. The argument that specialists have to forgo more training, it's a non issue since they are benefiting from that trade by gaining a skill. If they were paid maybe $100 more than the average infanteer, I doubt anyone would complain. In comparison to the infantry, who are trained within 6 months and require less training,  they don't have any sort of special training so theres no benefit. All in all the amount of money that specialists are paid is by far way too much and should have some of it distributed into the pays of other trades. The only trades that I see are justified with being paid significantly more are those related to medicine and health. For example, dentists and doctors. Other than that most specialist trades are getting paid too much.

Trades that need not be element specific can be condensed. For example, having an army clerk, navy clerk, and air force clerk is unnecessary. You only need one of either element. As it stands now, there is approximately 5000-7000 infantry soldiers of approximately 80,000 members. Thats only around 10%, when there should be at least 25% infantry compared to the other 40 sum trades. There should always be at least a 3-1 ratio between infantry and other trades. This would form an effective combat effective unit. Anyway, there are a bunch of useless trades in the forces that the forces can survive without. The salary of these trades can be put into other things, which would be beneficial every other important trade. Infantry should be getting around 40k a year as a private 2 or 3. This would be possible if all the useless trades were removed from the forces.

To be continued.

 
You should probably check how much a Pte 3 makes these days.

Not going to touch any other part of this though.
 
yeah sure, how about outsourcing clerks and engineers....eme's who needs them, jus take the damn truck to bob's garage.... ;)
 
No need for clerks? I like getting paid on time thank you very much. Your idea works well in CANADA. But it creates a bit of an issue when civilian Joe Blow does not want to put the hours to get the job done. Not to mention when out on ops it is a bit of an OPSEC issue to have civilians wandering around willy nilly.

And those on PAT platoons, well they bring you your hot eats out on ex and ensure you get your oranges and water at the end of your BFT.

Oh and those getting spec pay, well most of them deal with TOP SECRET or higher info (int guys) or do highly technical jobs, which like you said they could get paid higher on civvy street.

Everyone plays their role in this army.
 
I think faceman was speaking in jest with the clerk/engineer comment....  ;)
 
You have a few vaild points in there about PAR and Basic Training, perhaps the stuff on physical fitness but the rest of your post is Right The F*** Out Of 'Er.

I think you are going to have one helluva hangover tomorrow, because I am seriously hoping you were hammered when you wrote that.  Mind providing us with some credentials please??
 
Crayon how about filling out your profile so the readers will know you are talking from experience vice from your @ss, otherwise your points will not carry as much weight.
 
crayon851 said:
The only trades that I see are justified with being paid significantly more are those related to medicine and health. For example, dentists and doctors. Other than that most specialist trades are getting paid too much.

Why just them ?

It takes 3 years of training for someone in my MOC and comunity to be fully operational. Thats quite a fair amount of work so why should i not get properly remunerated for that ?
 
Anyway, there are a bunch of useless trades in the forces that the forces can survive without. The salary of these trades can be put into other things, which would be beneficial every other important trade.

So what are these supposedly useless trades and why to you are they useless? Do you have first hand knowledge what they do and how they benefit the military?
 
After reading the title and the first post of this thread, I'm not really sure where it's going but I am pretty sure that it's nowhere good.

crayon851, your math skills are admirable.  Your logic and conclusions less so.
 
I'm an army supply tech, am I useless (that's a rhetorical question guys, nothing from the peanut gallery!).

Crayon, Logistics trades, for example Supply, RMS Clerk, Cook are not element specific contrary to what you may think (if I read your rant in that section properly). It does not matter what colour of uniform we wear, we do our trades job, on any base, ANYWHERE! If you would prefer the CF goes without support, please, advocate for the abolishment of our trades. Would you like them to pay for me to be re-trained? By the way, the Supply and RMS Clerk trades only take about 3 months to complete, and trust me, if you are a sh** pump, you get the boot. Hope this helps you with your facts.


Now, one thing I'd love to see: 1 national drivers license, 1 national car insurance, 1 national license plate for DND persons to save the hassle whenever posted. It would save time and money when someone gets posted from say, Ontario to Alberta. Just an idea. Any takers??? Bueller? Bueller?
 
crayon851 said:
There are a few other questions but you pretty much get the point of what direction I'm heading off in.
Actually, I'm lost and have no idea what direction you are heading in.  Your conversation is all over the place; you start to develop problems but don't finish and you present solutions without defining the problems.  I can't differentiate issues that you feel are symptoms from those that are the cause.

crayon851 said:
As it stands now, there is approximately 5000-7000 infantry soldiers of approximately 80,000 members. Thats only around 10%, when there should be at least 25% infantry compared to the other 40 sum trades. There should always be at least a 3-1 ratio between infantry and other trades. This would form an effective combat effective unit.
6,000 ± 1,000 is a pretty large error factor.  Where are your numbers coming from?  You waffel here between discussing the CF and discussing a "combat effective unit."  What are you talking about?  Should a "combat effective unit" of Air Command consist of 25% infantry?

crayon851 said:
Anyway, there are a bunch of useless trades in the forces that the forces can survive without..... if all the useless trades were removed from the forces.
Please enlighten us as to which MOS are useless and how many PYs they are monopolizing. 
 
So all the highly paid help in Ottawa got it all wrong.  Time spent developing a professional military force by our leadership over many years was all for naught because you, whoever you are, has the word on how to do it right.

Oh and speaking from experience, for many of the techie trades, unfortunately time has proven if you don't pay them well they just go to civy street. No transfers to the bonnies, stable family life .....man you are picking the wrong time in the life of the labour market to start giving highly paid technical help a hard time.
 
Chapeski said:
Now, one thing I'd love to see: 1 national drivers license, 1 national car insurance, 1 national license plate for DND persons to save the hassle whenever posted. It would save time and money when someone gets posted from say, Ontario to Alberta. Just an idea. Any takers??? Bueller? Bueller?

One thing I have been thinking about lately.. is somehow starting a push that all serving military members (and proven veterans, not just the "3 years in" criteria) at least get the respective provinces' licence plate and that large cities consider "free parking" for those individuals.  It's the least they can do for them.  Kind of like a "we recognize your work" thing. Oh yeah.. and how's about tax breaks (not just on ops) as well while I'm here?

As for the original poster's comments I actually agree about the holding platoons, they do drain for really no reason. Sure we can suggest that we need them for GD tasks but I seem to remember all those years we weren't recruiting like crazy... and all those menial tasks still managed to get accomplished. 
 
Bzzliteyr said:
One thing I have been thinking about lately.. is somehow starting a push that all serving military members (and proven veterans, not just the "3 years in" criteria) at least get the respective provinces' licence plate and that large cities consider "free parking" for those individuals.  It's the least they can do for them.  Kind of like a "we recognize your work" thing. Oh yeah.. and how's about tax breaks (not just on ops) as well while I'm here?

I'm not aiming for the free parking and tax breaks myself, however I wouldn't turn down the free parking! (Maybe with a DND personal vehicle plate that would help.) As well, the Vet's should get some benefit too, they've more than earned it. I just think it would save a bit of aggravation with inter-province postings. Frankly with this being my first one, how the hell do you folks do it without going nuts? Really?
 
crayon851 said:
These are the questions which I'm sure everyone has asked themselves at one point in their military careers


Trades that need not be element specific can be condensed. For example, having an army clerk, navy clerk, and air force clerk is unnecessary. You only need one of either element. As it stands now, there is approximately 5000-7000 infantry soldiers of approximately 80,000 members. Thats only around 10%, when there should be at least 25% infantry compared to the other 40 sum trades. There should always be at least a 3-1 ratio between infantry and other trades. This would form an effective combat effective unit. Anyway, there are a bunch of useless trades in the forces that the forces can survive without. The salary of these trades can be put into other things, which would be beneficial every other important trade. Infantry should be getting around 40k a year as a private 2 or 3. This would be possible if all the useless trades were removed from the forces.

While I Agree that large numbers of Infantry are nice, it also takes large numbers of support Trades to keep the infantry fighting.  I can't say anything about any other trade besides my own which is Infantry, but i can't see our goverment keeping any useless trades, so if they are still around there must be a reason for it.
 
I doubt we are going to see "Part II" of Crayon's epic, but on the subject of "Boots On The Ground" and bayonets to other guys, here is two interesting quantative papers on the topic.

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/download/csipubs/mcgrath_boots.pdf

http://cgsc.leavenworth.army.mil/carl/download/csipubs/mcgrath_op23.pdf
 
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