Constraining Canadian Federal Budget during Post COVID Downturn

[Remius]

That's someone's mom, or someone's grandma. There was no part of the situation that sat okay with me.

If some sort of UBI would help folks like her, I'm all for it. (But the UBI would have to be introduced smartly, not just CERB for all for life)

UBI, if properly introduced, would mean dropping all other social assistance and welfare type programs. The problem with that is that the left absolutely wants to keep everything and have UBI.

 

[CBH99]

UBI, if properly introduced, would mean dropping all other social assistance and welfare type programs. The problem with that is that the left absolutely wants to keep everything and have UBI.

I've realized the left here in Canada can't really do math very well.

Whether it's wanting to introduce UBI but also keep everything else, or a carbon tax that promises to reimburse us at tax time the money it collected during the year (why collect it in the first place if you are just going to refund it back?) to doubling a national debt in 8 years what from what it had taken 156 years to get to...

Higher income taxes. A carbon tax on everything that keeps getting increased again, and again, and again. And yet somehow with all this money literally flowing into federal coffers, we are still projected to post a $20B deficit in the upcoming year...


The left really doesn't like math.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Correct.

Then get on with it. I've levied a simplistic criticism against Boomers before - that they created a welfare state and then failed to fund it or have the children necessary to sustain it - but it isn't a particularly sound criticism. CPP, which as originated stood out as the most Ponzi-like scheme of any, started in 1965. Boomers had barely started to reach voting age and to enter the adult work force. The earliest steps towards publicly-funded health insurance in Canada began before any reached voting age. They took advantage of revolutionary new birth control, but they didn't single-handedly invent it.

 

[CBH99]

Following this debate, re Boomer's - and j really don't know enough about any of this to comment either way

Question for you though Brad...

The points you mention above are all good points. But if the argument is 'the boomer generation caused this mess' isn't it kinda fair to say..."either way, yes they did..." in a sense?



The generation I think Remius is considering the boomers would have had to have been the ones to enact current policies, solely on account that the generation before them has been retired for a long while now & most of them have passed on, and their kids obviously weren't the ones making policy...

So since that generation is the generation that would have been in office, would it not be fair to say it was that generation that played a defining role in whatever this debate is about?

(Whether or not those policies did or did not contribute to the current situation is the real question, in my mind anyway...but I admit I'm way out of my lane on this, just soaking up what I can)

 

[Kirkhill]

I see the havering continues.

Let me help you.

Boomer. Sassenach. Brit. White. Anglo-Saxon. Protestant. Male. Hetero. Cis

And yes. It is all my fault.

Including having kids. Cheers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The points you mention above are all good points. But if the argument is 'the boomer generation caused this mess' isn't it kinda fair to say..."either way, yes they did..." in a sense?

At any given time, there are members of at least three generations voting. More if you discard "generation=20 years" and go with the named generations - Silent, Boomer, X, Y, and Z are all alive and voting.

Thus, "In a way, everyone did." What's the point of trying to single out one "generation" if none of the others are behaving any differently when it comes to enacting, expanding, or merely continuing the policies and programs that supposedly have ruined things?

For a while now, crises that have fiscal impacts have been happening about every 5 to 10 years. The last one (pandemic) started 4 years ago. Clock is ticking. GoC is basically saying f*ck it, we're going to have at least another 5 years of substantial deficits. I'm wondering who exactly is expected to keep buying Canadian debt, and I think most voters lack enough imagination to understand what can happen.

 

[daftandbarmy]

At any given time, there are members of at least three generations voting. More if you discard "generation=20 years" and go with the named generations - Silent, Boomer, X, Y, and Z are all alive and voting.

Thus, "In a way, everyone did." What's the point of trying to single out one "generation" if none of the others are behaving any differently when it comes to enacting, expanding, or merely continuing the policies and programs that supposedly have ruined things?

For a while now, crises that have fiscal impacts have been happening about every 5 to 10 years. The last one (pandemic) started 4 years ago. Clock is ticking. GoC is basically saying f*ck it, we're going to have at least another 5 years of substantial deficits. I'm wondering who exactly is expected to keep buying Canadian debt, and I think most voters lack enough imagination to understand what can happen.

Meanwhile, the National Debt Clock is kicking into overdrive

Canada's National Debt Clock : The Canadian Taxpayers Federation

www.debtclock.ca

 

[Halifax Tar]

Following this debate, re Boomer's - and j really don't know enough about any of this to comment either way

Question for you though Brad...

The points you mention above are all good points. But if the argument is 'the boomer generation caused this mess' isn't it kinda fair to say..."either way, yes they did..." in a sense?



The generation I think Remius is considering the boomers would have had to have been the ones to enact current policies, solely on account that the generation before them has been retired for a long while now & most of them have passed on, and their kids obviously weren't the ones making policy...

So since that generation is the generation that would have been in office, would it not be fair to say it was that generation that played a defining role in whatever this debate is about?

(Whether or not those policies did or did not contribute to the current situation is the real question, in my mind anyway...but I admit I'm way out of my lane on this, just soaking up what I can)

To me it's more a case financial triage, if you will humor my wording.

The boomers were just playing the field they were on. And that's fair. My position is they enjoyed a relatively prosperous life time. Ample opportunity to better their position in life. At the same time for whatever reason they and their elected Govs failed to properly fund and resource many of our social programs like Healthcare, even knowing that eventually they, the big population bubble, will eventually be it's biggest user.

These generations also created a culture that diminished the importance of motherhood and families, which directly correlates to future taxation levels. And now we are relying on immigration to try and fill that gap, with all the issues that come with that.

Now on to the financial triage. To me, we need to invest in our future now. And that's where our efforts and treasure should go. I'm not saying put the nations elderly on ice flows, but I am saying that any new or existing policy or taxation should help the younger generations at the expense of the older.

I'm soon to be 45, and I think those in their teens and twenties have a very difficult hill to climb and I think that hill was made by self serving policies of the past. I'm even willing to accept my generations responsibility in that, as a Gen X'er.

 

[CBH99]

I agree completely, re we need to start making those investments now ...

Economic/Financial triage is probably a very accurate term to describe our government's current state of finances...unfortunately for all of us though, we've been dealt the worst shitty cards with our current political situation.

JT & Co have managed to double the national debt, which means our servicing cost on that taking up a whopping amount of public spending - and our situation is getting tangibly worse as time goes on.

(I refer to my previous question, but where the heck does all this money disappear to? We pay substantially more taxes now than we ever did during the Harper years, and yet we still managed to double the debt...)


I fear we wont be able to make the necessary investments for a while yet. Even after this ilk is gone, it's going to take the next government probably it's entire first term in office just to get us back on track.

If we don't become a more attractive place for businesses to move to, develop or support various industries that pay royalties to the government, and find some investments to make to replenish the public purse - I don't know how we as a country can make the investments necessary...

 

[FSTO]

So you think you can retire?

‎The Big Story: Are we witnessing the end of retirement? on Apple Podcasts

‎Show The Big Story, Ep Are we witnessing the end of retirement? - Dec 4, 2023

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Halifax Tar]

I agree completely, re we need to start making those investments now ...

Economic/Financial triage is probably a very accurate term to describe our government's current state of finances...unfortunately for all of us though, we've been dealt the worst shitty cards with our current political situation.

JT & Co have managed to double the national debt, which means our servicing cost on that taking up a whopping amount of public spending - and our situation is getting tangibly worse as time goes on.

(I refer to my previous question, but where the heck does all this money disappear to? We pay substantially more taxes now than we ever did during the Harper years, and yet we still managed to double the debt...)


I fear we wont be able to make the necessary investments for a while yet. Even after this ilk is gone, it's going to take the next government probably it's entire first term in office just to get us back on track.

If we don't become a more attractive place for businesses to move to, develop or support various industries that pay royalties to the government, and find some investments to make to replenish the public purse - I don't know how we as a country can make the investments necessary...

It's a very uncertain and unstable place we are leaving behind us... And I really feel for the kids right now. We definitely aren't setting them up for success.

Maybe they will be the "hard times make strong men" generations. Because I can tell you that's not us right now.

 

[IKnowNothing]

It's a very uncertain and unstable place we are leaving behind us... And I really feel for the kids right now. We definitely aren't setting them up for success.

It's an existential question along these lines that I find intruding in the quiet moments. Is the wheel just going to keep turning, or are we going to see a major pivot in the western way of life? Should I be conservative and play it safe so that I'm in a financial position to help my children be housed individually, or take the big swing for land that supports some level of food security and housing on site with capacity for multi-generational living?

 

[Halifax Tar]

It's an existential question along these lines that I find intruding in the quiet moments Is the wheel just going to keep turning, or are we going to see a major pivot in the western way of life? Should I be conservative and play it safe so that I'm in a financial position to help my children be housed individually, or take the big swing for land that supports some level of food security and a housing on site with capacity for multi-generational living?

That's definitely some questions that roll through my head during the long quiet watches in the stand.

 

[CBH99]

It's a very uncertain and unstable place we are leaving behind us... And I really feel for the kids right now. We definitely aren't setting them up for success.

Maybe they will be the "hard times make strong men" generations. Because I can tell you that's not us right now.

How dare you assume they'll adopt a singular gender, and presume they'll grow up to be strong men...

Oh, wait...I see your point & totally agree

 

[Quirky]

We definitely aren't setting them up for success.

Maybe they will be the "hard times make strong men" generations. Because I can tell you that's not us right now.

Still plenty of high income work available in the trades, but some kids still think they are entitled to employment with any degree. Liberal Art degrees alone won't cut it.

 

[Remius]

Still plenty of high income work available in the trades, but some kids still think they are entitled to employment with any degree. Liberal Art degrees alone won't cut it.

Which is one of the lies that the previous generation encouraged and promoted.

One of the main policy failures the boomers created was the move from OJT for a bunch of jobs to over credentialism meaning that people could lose two to six years of wealth accumulation and productivity and increasing their debt load as education became relatively more expensive than before. Not to mention other things like unpaid internships and volunteer work as means to gain experience. They basically created a shadow unpaid labour force.

 

[Good2Golf]

I'm soon to be 45, and I think those in their teens and twenties have a very difficult hill to climb and I think that hill was made by self serving policies of the past. I'm even willing to accept my generations responsibility in that, as a Gen X'er.

HT, agree that should be a thought-line in the mental calculus of how does our society remain reasonably buoyant and in a sustainable manner, an element of mutual support across the demographic fabric (all of it) of our society. I think it’s reasonable to posit that Millenials and Zers are relatively facing less relative prosperity than previous gens, and that there is a responsibility theme out there for all demographics of society to work towards as fair composition of society, both giving and accepting.

It's an existential question along these lines that I find intruding in the quiet moments. Is the wheel just going to keep turning, or are we going to see a major pivot in the western way of life? Should I be conservative and play it safe so that I'm in a financial position to help my children be housed individually, or take the big swing for land that supports some level of food security and housing on site with capacity for multi-generational living?

Indeed an interesting thought challenge space, IKN. What the optimal solution looks like (multigenerational home, carving off some equity to help kids, etc.) and may change over time or as impacted by geolocation if the gens are separated. For me, we are a Silent-X-Millenial family grouping and have already consolidated 3 locs into 2 (Silent-X and Millennial) and depending on whether loc in future supports 2>1loc (S-X-M/Y) we’ll see, but definitely looking at it from a systems (engineering-y/social) approach, w efficiency of scale where possible.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Still plenty of high income work available in the trades, but some kids still think they are entitled to employment with any degree. Liberal Art degrees alone won't cut it.

I would like to offer you that most in my generation (I'm a Milennial) we're sold the lie that all they needed was a degree and then boom...Management.

They glossed over the fact that the amount of people who previously needed a degree were limited strictly to those who were extremely wealthy or professionals that required one (Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers, Engineers, etc.). The also glossed over the fact that their parents social network got them the job, not the degree. It also was their parents who were working in trades that backed their kids never having to work as hard as they did for success...

Because of this, we have credential inflation in the job market: jobs that didn't use to require a degree now require it as the baseline, people who took the degree bait are now on the hook for loans and can't get a job in their field and can't take lesser work because they're "over qualified."

My father pushed for me to go to Western (his Alma Mater) but I had no desire to just get a degree. I joined the CAF instead. I make about on par with what my peers who went to university did, however, I'm not dragging a 20-45k financial boat anchor behind me.

So yes, kids go to Uni and get useless degrees instead of the trades. The blame is not with Little Johnny or Little Suzie who aren't looking 20 years down the road; it's with Mom, Dad, Teacher, Principal that told them "Go get and education or you're going to be cleaning toilets for the rest of your days..."

 

[Halifax Tar]

One of the main policy failures the boomers created was the move from OJT for a bunch of jobs to over credentialism meaning that people could lose two to six years of wealth accumulation and productivity and increasing their debt load as education became relatively more expensive than before. Not to mention other things like unpaid internships and volunteer work as means to gain experience. They basically created a shadow unpaid labour force.

This is a very very astute point, and I whole heartedly agree.

HT, agree that should be a thought-line in the mental calculus of how does our society remain reasonably buoyant and in a sustainable manner, an element of mutual support across the demographic fabric (all of it) of our society. I think it’s reasonable to posit that Millenials and Zers are relatively facing less relative prosperity than previous gens, and that there is a responsibility theme out there for all demographics of society to work towards as fair composition of society, both giving and accepting.

Its not really about responsibility, its about making the hard fiscal decisions that will set us up for success down the road. We cant save everyone.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I would like to offer you that most in my generation (I'm a Milennial) we're sold the lie that all they needed was a degree and then boom...Management.

They glossed over the fact that the amount of people who previously needed a degree were limited strictly to those who were extremely wealthy or professionals that required one (Doctors, Nurses, Lawyers, Engineers, etc.). The also glossed over the fact that their parents social network got them the job, not the degree. It also was their parents who were working in trades that backed their kids never having to work as hard as they did for success...

Because of this, we have credential inflation in the job market: jobs that didn't use to require a degree now require it as the baseline, people who took the degree bait are now on the hook for loans and can't get a job in their field and can't take lesser work because they're "over qualified."

My father pushed for me to go to Western (his Alma Mater) but I had no desire to just get a degree. I joined the CAF instead. I make about on par with what my peers who went to university did, however, I'm not dragging a 20-45k financial boat anchor behind me.

So yes, kids go to Uni and get useless degrees instead if the trades. The blame is not with Little Johnny or Little Suzie who aren't looking 20nyears down the road; it's with Mom, Dad, Teacher, Principal that told them "Go get and education or you're going to be cleaning toilets for the rest of your days..."

It should now be “go get the wrong education and you will be cleaning toilets for the rest of your days…and will be $45k in debt”.