Deploying the DART to Asia

[JasonH]

Canada leases Russian aircraft to take rescuers to Asia



03.01.2005, 23.56


 

OTTAWA, January 3 (Itar-Tass) - It took Canadian authorities much effort to lease the Russian jet Antonov-124 (known as Condor in NATO countries) for delivering a rapid deployment team of Canadian rescuers to Southern Asia, say excerpts of a report by the Defense Ministry that were published Monday.

Following the December 26 horrendous earthquake and tsunami, the Antonov-124's have the biggest demand among all military transport aircraft.

The shortage of heavy-duty cargo carriers virtually disrupted the dispatching of the Canadian team to Sri Lanka. The problem acquired an almost political tint, as the opposition accused Prime Minister Paul Martin's government of procrastinating with that large-scale international humanitarian operation â “ a fact that it claimed might affect Canada's reputation.

With a solution found and the Condor leased, the rescuers will leave for the disaster area within the next few days.

The team has more than 200 men and is equipped with a mobile command center, medical appliances, and a water purification unit producing 100,000 liters of fresh water a day.

The Defense Ministry says the number of Condor aircraft operating outside Russia does not exceed 20. In the light of it, Canadian military say the country must have its own fleet of heavy-duty transport jets or lease them in other countries.

Local analysts point out the Condor's perfect characteristics, calling their limited number the only shortcoming of that family of aircraft.

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=1619579&PageNum=0

 

[ArmyRick]

SeakingTacco, thanks for shedding some light on what has happened in the CF (and yet another example of how we are our own enemy at times)...
DART should be put on paper and IMO we should stay out of this mess. Let the Govt give $$$ to the disaster. I know I can hear so many Candians screaming bloody murder for my thoughts.

REALITY CHECK, open ears and close mouth, Canada.
(1) We can barely sustain normal CF operations (Athena, palladium, etc)
(2) We have no decent military sea lift or air lift capability (lets face it Herc don't really cut it anymore)
(3) We don't have the military personnel to man this thing.

The only good I see coming from this is that Canadians (who love seeing our troops save the world) will once again be very proud of their military. Who knows, maybe we will get C-17 Globemsters out of this ordeal (yeah right) or maybe something silly like DART receiving another couple millions of $$$ and more equipment to park in Trenton.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

48Highlander-

I'm not sure that I understand what the point of your post was, but let me make it clear(er) that I am not opposed to Canada providing both monetary and physical aid to Asia, including deploying elements of our military.   In fact, I think we should be taking a leading role, as befits a weathy nation.

My point about the DART was, and remains, that it is an inappropriate use of military resources- IMHO.   We could probably be doing more sooner had we continued to invest in our airlift, sealift and helicopter fleets in the 1990s.

The US Navy seems to be doing a great job helping out with conventional warfighting forces, precisely because they had a carrier BG and a Marine ARG in the area.   Good for them.

So please, don't talk about how important it is to do a recce before sending down our wee little team.   While you'd be right under other circumstances, fixing a disaster of this magnitude requires bodies and equipment.   Not tomorrow or a month from now, but as soon as frggin' possible.

I stand by my original point about a recce being necessary.   In fact, the bigger the disaster, the farther away from home, the more necessary it becomes.

Remember that old dictum "time spent on recce is seldom wasted..."

 

[54/102 CEF]

Saturdays Toronto Sun


Just more comments from a journalist whom I am starting to lose some respect for.   I mean the swipe at JTF2 (one of his many) was not necessary for the story.   Anyone up for a side topic of what exactly is Worthington's problem with JTF2?

He`s a PPCLI Leg

 

[48Highlander]

    Yeah, I agree that the DART is a waste of resources.  As for the ol' "time spent on recce is never wasted" bit, you gotta use some common sense there.  Personally, if I've got 200 enemy charging my trench from 100m away, I don't think I'd take the time to go recce anything.  Ditto for a disaster like this.  Get the troops and equipment moving first.  No matter where you put them, they'll be able to do some good.  If while they're there you determine that they need to be moved elsewhere, well, the Yanks in the area can give them a lift if need be.

 

[PViddy]

Well me being the OCdt. not knowing much about anything  ;D the recce does make a whole lota sense.  In my view you simply can't just send 200 troops over.  A suitable place for a base of operations should be located, which i believe was their purpose in the first place.  I think they may have taken to long to get he ball rolling, but that is politics for ya.  I'm proud that we were able to send a specialized team to help with the efforts.

cheers

PV

 

[armybuck041]

    Yeah, I agree that the DART is a waste of resources.   As for the ol' "time spent on recce is never wasted" bit, you gotta use some common sense there.   Personally, if I've got 200 enemy charging my trench from 100m away, I don't think I'd take the time to go recce anything.   Ditto for a disaster like this.   Get the troops and equipment moving first.   No matter where you put them, they'll be able to do some good.   If while they're there you determine that they need to be moved elsewhere, well, the Yanks in the area can give them a lift if need be.

No recce? There are allot of silly things we do, but sending out a Recce Party for an Op like this is essential.

Think about it

I havn't the time to break it all down right this minute, but I suspect that you are not very familiar with the Dart and its composition. You cannot take these Troops and equipment like a Field Hospital and a ROWPU c/w Bagger and just go dropping em wherever you like. Without our own timely and reliable Air lift, it is very important that the end up at a suitable and proper destination.

 

[48Highlander]

    It's a DISASTER.  People are dying every day.  Can you imagine, if, for instance, the fire department rected like this?  I can just imagine that phone call...

You:  My house is on fire!
Operator:  One moment please....ah yes, ok, we can donate $500 to help you put out your fire.
You:  Well that's all nice and good, but I'd really appreciate a bit of manpower here...
Operator:  Very well sir, we'll start looking for a fire truck to rent, and in the meantime we're sending over a consultant to recce a proper parking spot.

 

[armybuck041]

We are not putting out a fire at your local Armouries or doing a road move to Meaford pal. It takes a great deal of diplomatic and military co-ordination to pull this off.  

 

[48Highlander]

Yah I guess the Yanks and the Aussies must be way better diplomats than us

I understand the need for co-ordination.  What I'm saying is that we're moving way too damn slow.  Recce might be important, coordination might be important, but speed and agression are just as important.  you can do all the damn reccies you want, but if you're too slow, by the time you're ready there'll be nothing left to do.

 

[armybuck041]

Yah I guess the Yanks and the Aussies must be way better diplomats than us

Nope... But the Yanks have serious Airlift, and the Aussies are in close enough proximity to use C-130's as they were intended.....

Keep doing your homework, and well your at it, take some time to think about how long it took the CF to respond to the Ice Storm and the Manitoba Floods.

 

[armybuck041]

I understand the need for co-ordination.   What I'm saying is that we're moving way too damn slow.   Recce might be important, coordination might be important, but speed and agression are just as important.   you can do all the damn reccies you want, but if you're too slow, by the time you're ready there'll be nothing left to do.

The last quote's I heard in the media is that it will take these regions 15 years to recover.... Translation: There will be plenty of things for us to do for the 40 Day mandate. Almost 40% of the Dart is made up of members of my Unit, and i'd rather see us be deliberate and get it right then see them get screwed around on the other end.

We're not doing a Coy Attack, so you can leave out all of the references to it Showing up with our collective shit together will be far more comforting to the locals than running around with a bottle of water in one hand and a shell dressing in the other.

 

[Kirkhill]

More important than airlift the Yanks have Marine Amphibious Ready Groups stationed in those waters with just this type of mission as one of their Special Operations Capable taskings.  Another way for us to show a commitment to the region would be to park a "relatively" cheap Largs Bay/Rotterdam class LSD(A) in Sydney or Singapore without a crew (or only a skeleton) - loaded with support for a light inf battle group.  Fly out the mission specialists when the need arises (either civil or military).  Rotate vessel with two similar ones on each coast of Canada to maintain equipment stocks.  

Yes I know it would cost money (I hear Ex-Dragoon warming up out there somewhere).  What doesn't?  But it would certainly demonstrate our commitment to the area.  Just as 4 CMBG did to Europe but this would be at a much lower cost.   1 LSD(A) ~ 2 C-17s (Maybe 1).

 

[armybuck041]

Kirkhill.. interesting.

With our military in the state that it is in, we can only ever hope to be reactive, instead of proactive like the US.

As a closer to home thought (not the media point of view), my unit is still in the process of trying to identify who will be leaving, little own the fact that it took this long to find a suitable relief area. The Dart will never be successful when it continues to be a 3rd hat worn by members of otherwise Operationally committed Units (ie the 3 CMBG's).... The rest of the issues are all moot points by comparison.

 

[PViddy]

It's a DISASTER.   People are dying every day.   Can you imagine, if, for instance, the fire department rected like this?   I can just imagine that phone call...

You:   My house is on fire!
Operator:   One moment please....ah yes, ok, we can donate $500 to help you put out your fire.
You:   Well that's all nice and good, but I'd really appreciate a bit of manpower here...
Operator:   Very well sir, we'll start looking for a fire truck to rent, and in the meantime we're sending over a consultant to recce a proper parking spot.

48th Highlander.   I happen to be involved in the fire service and ya, we still do recce's.   Do you think we just send a rescue or hose line into a burning nuilding before determining if their is A) anyone in the building itself? or B) Is the building is structually sound ? the answer is NO WAY

First of all, the operator would try to a "quick recce" verbally with the person making the 911 call so that the responding trucks know what they are goin into.

Second upon arrival at the scene the Captain or Platoon Chief will definately do an assessment before anyone goes in!

The thing to keep in mind however is all this is done very quickly and in some cases simultaneously i.e preping equipment while the scene size up is done.   Your analogy of comparing DART to somthin like the fire dept. was very poor.

I guess where the point lies is, for obvious reasons their wouldn't be a lot of politics in responding to a municipal emergency, where Asia is a much larger scale and government and as with a lot of things federal....their are politics, just the way it is.

Getting back to my point if you were to compare the CF with the FD....yes even a FD does recce's before whatever they do, just very quickly.   Unfortunately that was a large problem in tragic events like Sept. 11th you always try to know what you are goin into, but somtimes this proves very difficult.


regards

PV

 

[Armymedic]

Just returned from a family vaction in the US. Nothing but tsunami coverage on the news channels. I am suprised that the deployment of the DART was only annouced yesterday. IMHO they should be there by now (but it took us 4 days to get to Ottawa from Petawawa for the Ice Storm this same time of yr in '98  :-[ ). CNN et all are making big air about US Marine helo's from the USS Abe Lincoln already in place delivering food, water, and setting up purification units.

Also a point ref the rapid Isreali relief team that went to Sri Lanka, the gov't told them to go home....(abc news radio yesterday).

More after I sleep...unlike my peers on the DART, who are no doubt frantically packing thier barracks boxes, after being recalled from christmas leave as we speak.

 

[Gilligan]

[quote/] I understand the need for co-ordination. What I'm saying is we're moving too darn slow...
WOW, I can't believe how many people hate DART.  Yeah, it's been poorly planned, but the basic idea shouldn't be scoffed (although I'm not sure that there is anyone who has said otherwise).  Yes, it sucks that people are being called to go, it sucks more than it has taken this long, and yes Canada and the CF look like a bunch of idiots because DND made promises about DART that they couldn't uphold....but imagine how incredibly rediculous we would look to everyone in the world....if we got there without our eggs in one basket?
  And, I commend Paul Martin (no matter what his and his cabinet's motives) on deciding on sending $80M for Aid.  And that's in addition to the millions being sent by aid groups across Canada.  Although, one must wonder where exactly this money is coming from.....I'm young, and don't yet completely understand politics and budgets (although I'm learning) and perhaps some of you know better than I....but one doesn't just pull $80M out of their butt to hand to another group of people. 
  Anyway, it seems I've rambled, I hope I made sense, and hope I didn't repeat anything, just working it out I guess.  There are certainly far too many what ifs, or how comes to be answered, and certainly not many people on here are really the ones to answer them....although they could give some darn good insight that's for sure.  And thank you for opening my little reservists eyes to this.

 

[a_majoor]

http://www.snappingturtle.net/flit/archives/2005_01_02.html#005094

January 02, 2005
Flightless DART

There's little to say about the tragedy of Canada's response to the tsunami tragedy that hasn't already been said. A lot of excuses have been bandied about for why Canadian soldiers weren't sent, when Australia, Taiwan, Israel, and other countries despatched forces early, and the American military launched its largest operation in the area since Vietnam to try to save lives.

In the end, though, the answer's pretty simple: 600 tonnes.

That's the amount of airlift required to move the DART (Disaster Assistance Response Team). Since Canada only has the 4 CC-150 Polaris (modified Airbuses) for strategic airlift, with a cargo capacity of 13 tonnes each, rapid deployment of DART anywhere outside the effective ferry range of our 30-odd additional short-range Herc transports (ie, off this continent) was a mathematical impossibility, without civilian airlift... and civilian airlift is in pretty short supply at the moment.

Whether to Bosnia or Afghanistan, the Canadian military flies overseas by chartered air now. Ottawa's political leaders would have had to move very fast to reserve some of the available transports (mostly Russian-made) before they were snapped up by other governments and NGOs. They didn't. (Canada, along with the other smaller NATO countries, tends to use Russian air carrier Volga Dnepr, which has refused to sign any agreement that "reserves" any of its airfleet to a given government in advance for these kinds of situations. Australia's military, by contrast, uses domestic air carrier Adagold, flying the same Russian aircraft, but with their own country's military as a "preferred customer.")

The lack of airlift was a conscious decision, based on the little remarked-upon shift in the tail-end Chretien period, during John McCallum's time as defence minister. His predecessor Art Eggleton, seemingly influenced by the Liberal interventionist wing (Richard Gwyn, Janice Steyn, Lloyd Axworthy et al), had attempted to reposition Canada as a "first-in, first-out" military, moving quickly to crisis areas with a rapid deployment force, but shunning long-term commitments anywhere.

McCallum rightly recognized that the Forces a) didn't have the people; b) didn't have the money, and c) would not have the public support for the inevitable Canadian casualties when the paratroopers dropped into Kigali, or what have you. Fully supported by the Prime Minister, he publicly switched the military's focus to a "last-in," stabilization-oriented force (or, admitted that was what we really had, if you prefer to think of it that way)... low-intensity conflict only, shipped by chartered air into countries with a sufficiently-stable ground picture that significant casualties were highly unlikely. Starting with the McCallum years, we officially became "hotspot" averse. (Regarding strategic airlift, his now famous line was "No one has yet been able to give me a single instance where the absence of this capability stopped us or significantly delayed us moving people or equipment from point A to point B." Well, we've got a single instance now.)

Unfortunately, as was commented on at the time, that mentality makes it now effectively impossible to deploy in natural disaster scenarios, as well. DART, an Eggleton "first-in" project, has atrophied to the point where it proved undeployable even to Haiti during the hurricanes last year. If all this makes you wonder how effective the CF might be if that earthquake had been off of Vancouver Island, instead of Aceh, well, you probably should wonder. It's certainly not encouraging. Hopefully the Americans will have an aircraft carrier free then, too.

(Current defence minister Bill Graham and prime minister Paul Martin mouthed some support for the UN/ICISS "reponsibility to protect" concept through 2004 (aka the "peacekeeping brigade"), although there has been no sign to date of any actual resource allocations to meet that commission's demand for "an effective expeditionary force, capable of engaging in low- to medium-intensity conflict, anywhere in the world." If the pendulum is switching back to a "first-in" concept, it's doing so very slowly, and the military recruiting and training crisis means actually meeting that goal would be something like a decade away at this point.)

"The world needs more Canada," Bono said. Well, it's unlikely at the moment to get it, at least not in the uniformed variety.

PS: The Canadian side of the tragedy is a classic example of political power abhorring a vacuum, by the way. With the federal government effectively paralyzed by vacation, the Toronto chattering elites have been looking to the city's mayor to have his "Rudy Giuliani moment" and sent planeloads of relief with a Toronto sticker on the side of the plane overseas. Mayor David Miller, by all accounts a sensible man, has avoided the challenge to date... one of his successors likely won't the next time, and the abrogation of federal powers by the provinces and municipalities will continue its Canadian snowball.
Posted by BruceR at 03:33 PM

A sole product of BruceR and Jantar Mantar Communications, and affiliated contributors. Opinions expressed within are in no way the responsibility of anyone's employers or facilitating agencies and should by rights be taken as nothing more than one person's half-informed viewpoint on the world.

The reason DART is a military "organization" is that in theory, a military unit is self contained and has the ability to operate in almost any setting. Unfortunatly, Dart is mostly an idea, and could only work if it was a "real" unit like the RCR with its own internal organization, chain of command and permanent staff.

As for the idea that you can fly in and assist right away, the only reason the US Navy can seem to do so is the battlegroup is also self contained, and the actual Marines, Corpsmen, helicopter pilots and so on are waiting aboard the ship(s) while the situation is being assessed. Since they are just off shore, they can arrive very quickly once someone calls in via radio or sat phone. If we had a RO/RO transport of JSS that could set sail right away, there would still have to be someone there to tell them where to sail to...

 

[Kirkhill]

As for the idea that you can fly in and assist right away, the only reason the US Navy can seem to do so is the battlegroup is also self contained, and the actual Marines, Corpsmen, helicopter pilots and so on are waiting aboard the ship(s) while the situation is being assessed. Since they are just off shore, they can arrive very quickly once someone calls in via radio or sat phone. If we had a RO/RO transport of JSS that could set sail right away, there would still have to be someone there to tell them where to sail to...

Agreed entirely.  "Time spent in recce................"

 

[Armymedic]

You can say PERSTEMPO for medical and engineers here in Pet is gone out the window. Most of the medical pers are people who just came back from Bosnia and Afghanistan less then a yr ago. I am sure its the same for the engineers and the other DART support.

BTW most are leaving from here today...Have a good one.