• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Discussion of Canada's Role in AFG (merged)

Its amazing to see fellow Canadians taking a stand on why we should leave Afghanistan based on little or wrong information. To me the whole situation can be compared to a school yard and a bully. The bully has been running the yard for years preying on the weak and getting fat off their milk money and suddenly that a few other kids decided to stand up to him.

The Afghanistan government and people(from what I've seen) want us there to restore some sense of order so they can try to normalize their lives after decades of war. IMHO the only ones that don't want us there are the ones that got rich off of terrorizing their fellow countrymen.
 
Here is an Issues (opinion) piece by Jonathan Kay from today’s National Post; it is reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=8566c8bc-4fb9-4d1d-98f1-3cad832a5108&p=2
Preparing for a Black Hawk Down moment

Jonathan Kay
National Post

Monday, March 20, 2006

In one three-day trip to Afghanistan, Stephen Harper exhibited more leadership and moral clarity than the Liberals did in 13 years.

The Prime Minister went to Afghanistan because he understands what's at stake: If the country falls back into Taliban hands, Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar will have proven to the world -- including everyone in Iraq -- that jihadis can rout a modern Western army and transform a nascent democracy into a medieval theocracy.

The PM's main problem is that the Taliban are the enemies of not just ordinary Afghans, but of America as well. And so Canada's Left, reflexively sympathetic to anyone warring against George W. Bush, is already singing the chorus of cut-and-run.

But even the Left is divided on Afghanistan -- because our mission there has a strong humanitarian component. Across a range of human-development indicators, Afghanistan resembles a sub-Saharan nation. Linda McQuaig and Rick Salutin may believe we should let ordinary Afghans suffer because helping them would indirectly help Bush. But few Canadians are inclined to agree.

And yet, support for our Afghanistan mission could still be one major firefight away from collapsing. The problem with both the strategic and humanitarian rationales for our mission is that they suffer from what economists call the "free rider" problem. Yes, Canada's strategic interest in Afghanistan -- fighting militant Islam -- is compelling. But it is a shared interest diffused over the entire civilized world. Why should it be Canada leading the Kandahar charge as opposed to, say, New Zealand, or France? Better yet, why not just follow the usual Canadian practice and let the Americans do it?

Humanitarian arguments, too, will fall to the wayside if the body count spikes. While democracies have a high tolerance for casualties in wars of self-interest, the same is not true of humanitarian interventions -- which explains why Kosovo was bombed from 15,000 feet, and why no Western nation is willing to sacrifice a single solider to save Darfur. If the Taliban are able to stage a particularly spectacular attack, Harper will feel the same heavy pressure to evacuate as Bill Clinton did when Somali gunmen killed 18 U.S. soldiers in Mogadishu 13 years ago.

An Afghan Mogadishu would threaten not only our presence in Afghanistan, but also this precious moment in Canadian history.

Paul Martin and Jean Chretien spoke often about Canadian values, and congratulated themselves at great length about our country's Beatles-era peacekeeping tradition. But they did little to fight terrorism and rogue power in the modern world. Even when the Liberals eventually did the right thing in Afghanistan, they kept mum on the subject -- as if it were something to be embarrassed about.

Harper is of another breed. Good on him for visiting Afghanistan and saying the right things. But in the end, our deployment is an act of conscience aimed at fulfilling our moral obligation to the rest of the free world. This motivation may be laudable, but it is also highly abstract. And it is questionable whether it will survive if Canada is faced with the concrete violence produced by a Black Hawk Down moment.

Harper should be laying the necessary groundwork before such a moment arrives. As others have noted on these pages, Canadian NGOs and government agencies are modest to a fault about the good work we're doing in Afghanistan. That must change. Canadians will be more willing to endure casualties if our deployment is seen not as an isolated expeditionary force but as what it is -- the security arm of a broader relief effort.

Second, Harper should reverse course by agreeing to a full Parliamentary debate and free vote on Afghanistan. Even if the biggest push for this is coming from the NDP, which may use the occasion for pacifistic posturing, it's still a good idea.

For years, foreign policy in this country has been based on the leader's personal whim: Our non-roles in missile defence and Iraq were both decided by the PMO on the basis of superficial political optics. Afghanistan should be different. It should be clear that our presence there is nothing less than a fundamental expression of our national will, as articulated by democratically elected lawmakers.

I expect that an overwhelming majority of MPS would support our mission. And I hope they would continue doing so even when we face the casualties that are a tragic but unavoidable part of any serious military deployment.

© National Post 2006

I agree with Kay that:

• The political left (near and far/loony) in Canada is so wrapped up in its all consuming hatred (no better word) of George W Bush that it cannot see the humanitarian utility, much less the strategic necessity, of the Afghanistan mission;

• One tragic loss of life could be a tipping point for Canadians who have been brainwashed by a biased, muddle headed, inept, lazy media (which serves, by and large, as stenographers for the Liberal Party of Canada’s Trudeau wing and the NDP) into believing that baby blue berets are the key to our national security and the future of the West; and

• Harper must “lay the groundwork” to begin the long, hard process of educating Canadians.

While I agree that parliament should debate the Afghan deployment – if only to flush out the loony left, I am constantly dismayed (or, perhaps, reassured about the essential ignorance of my fellow citizens) by the lack of comprehension of our Constitution amongst those who want a vote on it.

Parliament has neither a right nor a need to approve the deployment of troops.

In 1939 King demanded such a debate for totally political and (Constitutionally) quite, unnecessary reasons.  Parliament’s right is to vote or deny the money to make war or keep the peace – which it does, year-after-year, when the estimates (the blue book) are tabled.  This is the right which we affirmed some 350+ years ago at Whitehall when we (the people) lopped off King Charles’ head.  The sovereignty of Parliament was established, for ever, but it did not alter the basic nature of the state.  We remain a monarchy and it is the Queen’s right and duty to deploy her armies and navies to defend her realm and to promote her interests.  Parliament’s choice is to vote funds, or not.  It is a hugely powerful choice.

Now, lazy parliamentarians and crafty bureaucrats have conspired to deal with the appropriations as one ‘whole’ – there is no valid Constitutional requirement to do that.  In fact, estimates should be debated (as they are, in Committee) and then voted on department-by-department, if not (always) line-by-line.  It should be possible, in other words, for parliamentarians to vote money for e.g. DND’s personnel (Vote 1) and equipment (Vote 5) budgets but to deny the money in the operations and maintenance ‘vote’ (also in Vote 5) thereby, effectively and Constitutionally, denying the crown the right to conduct certain military operations.  That is the proper role of parliament in our (Westminster) form of a constitutional monarchy.  But that’s beside the point.

 
I posted this on a couple other threads since there are more than one running with a similar topic.

I'm currently writing a paper for my public adm. class. I chose Canadians in Afghanistan as my topic, please read and make comments.
 
raymao,

I'd start this in a seperate thread, just to keep responses to your essay seperate from the issues surrounding Pike.

That's what I do!!
 
GO!!! said:
I'd start this in a seperate thread, just to keep responses to your essay seperate from the issues surrounding Pike.
That way you avoid the confusion of you thinking we're trashing your paper, when we're actually trashing Pike .....or viceversa  >:D

;)  <---- 'cause I know academics can be sensitive
 
Edward Campbell said:
This is a letter to the editor in today’s Globe and Mail from Senator Peter Stollery (see, inter alia: http://www.parl.gc.ca/36/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/FORE-E/REP-E/rep07apr00-e.htm ) (it is reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act):

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060307.LETTERS07-4/TPStory/Opinion/letters
This takes us back to Pike’s original question: why is combat in Afghanistan more valuable than humanitarian missions in Sudan or Congo or the gods only know where, next? (And which, as Sen. Stollery points out, only work when trained (Chinese, Indian & Pakistani) soldiers secure the area and allow e.g. CARE to operate).
      My father and uncle were with RC57 Congo during the last UN lead debacle in the Congo.  While the myth of peacekeeping may have held up at home, for the troops on the sharp end when sides shifted and alliances broke down it was a war, and an ugly one. Reading the reports on Somalia and Rwanda none of the soldiers in the family were particularly surprised.  Do we want another mission run by the UN in Africa where our objectives are unrealistic, our troop levels are too small, or composed of ill disciplined poorly prepared troops, our ROE's are more restrictive than a playground teacher's, and leadership provided by third world civilian UN authorities whose political systems generate bluster rather than decisiveness?  Sounds like fun, but don't ask me to volunteer.  I know how it turns out.
    Afghanistan is a NATO operation, with clearly defined mission parameters, professional leadership, first rate troops with proven ability to operate jointly.  Given clear goals, good troops, ROE that are easily understood and workable, I expect the mission will succeed, and the troops that come back will be able to balance the heavy memories with the sense of accomplishment; what they did mattered and made a difference.  Not like a lot of UN missions, where the troops know that they could have made a real difference, but were not permitted to.  We've done a lot of good under the blue berets, but there are a lot of good troops out there who came back frustrated that they had the skills and training to make a difference, but not the UN support.
 
I agree that the UN is increasingly unable to plan and conduct anything like an effective, much less efficient operation.  That doesn’t mean that someone shouldn’t do something about Sudan and Congo, and, and, and, ad infinitum.

If people like Pike and her fellow travelers really do care about anything other than slagging George Bush – care about anything Canadian, in other words – then they would recommend that we double the defence budget over the next five years and then play a lead role, by forming our own coalitions of the willing to do what the UN cannot: help the people of Africa.

Happily, for the tax-payers and/or all the other government programmes, people like Pike and Judy Rebbic (sic?) and Maude Barlow don’t think (and really don't care, either), so we needn’t worry about that.

For the rest of us: Africa is a pity, maybe even a tragedy but it is not a matter of vital importance for Canada.
 
Edward Campbell said:
I agree that the UN is increasingly unable to plan and conduct anything like an effective, much less efficient operation.  That doesn’t mean that someone shouldn’t do something about Sudan and Congo, and, and, and, ad infinitum.

If people like Pike and her fellow travelers really do care about anything other than slagging George Bush – care about anything Canadian, in other words – then they would recommend that we double the defence budget over the next five years and then play a lead role, by forming our own coalitions of the willing to do what the UN cannot: help the people of Africa.

Happily, for the tax-payers and/or all the other government programmes, people like Pike and Judy Rebbic (sic?) and Maude Barlow don’t think (and really don't care, either), so we needn’t worry about that.

For the rest of us: Africa is a pity, maybe even a tragedy but it is not a matter of vital importance for Canada.
      If Canada wishes to make a difference, then forming our own coalitions is the way to go.  Can Canada do it alone?  No.  Can Canada, Denmark, Holland, and Ireland (to pick a few minor players who could jointly do the job) put together a mission that was big enough, good enough, and sustainable enough to finish the job.  Yes.  Can the UN help, yes, its organizations can provide a framework to help rebuild.  Can the UN lead it?  No, its a spent force, with all the effective decision making ability of an amoeba.
 
mainerjohnthomas said:
Can Canada, Denmark, Holland, and Ireland (to pick a few minor players who could jointly do the job)...
You'd have to ensure that such a coalition had both the firepower and staying-power to do the job.

Current, and likely future, post-combat stability missions are going to require a degree of combat power, and a willingness to use it. Without this, all the other aspects of nation-building are likely to fail. I'd want to add a few more medium- to large-sized players to any coalition....with robust rules of engagement.

There would also have to be a strong domestic consensus, so that the mission doesn't disintegrate following homefront or in-theatre violence (eg - Spain withdrawing from Ops following Madrid bombing).
 
The other problem is that any 'coalition of the willing' must have a strong, global reach - which means the capability to get anywhere in the world with the firepower and then having enough of the 'staying power' (morale and materiel) to get the job done, however long it may take.

Very, very few countries have that global reach; it may be that fewer still have all the required staying power.
 
Amen. Canada is a responsible and leading nation and we must continue our leading role. Canada is #1 :cdn:. Go Canada.
To all the fine young men and women who make up our Armed Forces, Bless you all. Thank you. 
 
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060517/nato_afghan_060517

NATO asks Canada to lead in Afghanistan: report
CTV.ca News Staff

NATO wants Canada to take over command of the entire Afghan mission in 2008, a senior government official has told The Globe and Mail.

The Globe says the request, as well as a NATO meeting scheduled for next week, is behind the government's sudden decision to hold a vote tonight on whether to extend Canada's mission in Afghanistan by two more years.

After weeks of hounding the government for a clear indication of how long the troops would be in the region, opposition parties finally agreed to the six-hour debate and a vote for Wednesday.

New Democrats meanwhile have decided not to support extension of the mission, while the Liberals and Bloc Quebecois, caught by surprise when Conservative House leader Rob Nicholson approached them with a request for the vote, remain undecided.

"We will not be supporting the new mission that's being proposed by the Conservatives," Layton told reporters following an emergency caucus meeting late Tuesday.

The Liberals also met Tuesday evening to discuss the issue but were not expected to reach a consensus until their regular caucus meeting Wednesday, if at all.

Some Liberal MPs were angry about being rushed into making a decision with little information and few seemed disposed to support the motion.

"It's a serious issue, you don't debate sending people into harms way for two more years at 36 hours notice," Liberal defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh told CTV's Canada AM Wednesday.

Even Michael Ignatieff, one of the front runners for the Liberal leadership and one of the more bullish supporters of the Afghanistan mission, sounded a note of caution.

"I don't want blank cheques here. This is a serious matter. Canadians are getting shot at," he told reporters on his way into the caucus meeting Tuesday.

Ignatieff said he wants to know how many troops would be involved and what their strategic objective would be.

"Before I vote for anything I want to know what I'm voting for."

Close vote

CTV's Ottawa bureau chief Robert Fife told AM it was "going to be a very close vote."

"The big news is that the Liberals, who decided to send the troops to Afghanistan in the first place, will switch sides and vote against extending the mission tonight."

Meanwhile, an Ottawa-based think tank attacked the federal government Wednesday for spending what it estimated as $4.1 billion on its Afghan operations since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

Steven Staples, of the Polaris Institute, told an Ottawa news conference that Afghanistan accounts for 68 per cent of the $6.1 billion spent on international missions between the fall of 2001 and March 2006.

"The military mission is consuming all available resources, preventing resources elsewhere ... such as Darfur," Staples said.

Once a top ten contributor, Canada now ranks 50th out of 95 countries currently contributing military personnel to UN missions, Staples added.

Canada has around 2,300 soldiers in Afghanistan, with most stationed at Kandahar Airfield on a mission that is scheduled to end in February 2007.

The Conservative motion to extend the mission to February 2009 reads: "This House support the government's two-year extension of Canada's diplomatic, development, civilian police and military personnel in Afghanistan and the provision of funding and equipment for this extension."

Regular parliamentary business will be put on hold today during the six-hour debate, followed by the vote.

If the motion fails to pass, Prime Minister Stephen Harper would be honour-bound not to extend the deployment during this mandate.

Fifteen Canadian soldiers and one Canadian diplomat have been killed in Afghanistan since 2002.
 
big bad john said:
Meanwhile, an Ottawa-based think tank attacked the federal government Wednesday for spending what it estimated as $4.1 billion on its Afghan operations since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

Steven Staples, of the Polaris Institute, told an Ottawa news conference that Afghanistan accounts for 68 per cent of the $6.1 billion spent on international missions between the fall of 2001 and March 2006.

"The military mission is consuming all available resources, preventing resources elsewhere ... such as Darfur," Staples said.

Silly question: Can someone explain to me how this think thank generates revenue to pay for their lights- or are they continually in the dark?

<sarcasm on>
Fortunately the genocide in Darfur has only started to materialize this past week. Perhaps the international community can nip this one in the bud. I'm sure if the Liberals were in power when this occurred, Canada would have stumbled over themselves sending troops.
<sarcasm off>
 
Maybe its time to "release the hounds" (insert best Mr Burns voice here)
 
IIRC Stephen Staples is a member here --

However his view of the world (in my humble opinion) is clouded. 

I personally am against ISAF getting a larger mandate -- as I am sure all members who have experience with OEF/ISAF...

There seems to be a large "hand wringer" population in NATO these days and unless ISAF is lead by a Canadian, British or American leader it will turn into a larger version of the Kabul police force that ISAF has become...

The mission has to be to agressively pursue and destoy the Taliban, Drug Producers and Warlords (often all three are one in the same these days).  This in turn allows the NGO and Gov't aid missions the safety and security that allows them to do their jobs and provide relief to the Afghani population.

*But what do I know I only live here  ::)
 
To a certain extent I share KevinB's concern: my experiences with ISAF (ISAF VI=Eurocorps and friends) didn't leave me with any faith that that organization can do anything other than very basic local security (concentrated mainly on its own force protection.) Hunkering down in heavily fortified camps will achieve nothing, and while it might reduce NATO (and Canadian) casualties, will not deter any attacks on the Afghans themselves, or reduce the Taliban's freedom of movement. But, if an ISAF force was given dynamic professional leadership and a strong backbone of capable troops, it could do well, as ISAF V under Gen Hiller proved. Still, I can never see it equalling the capability of OEF unless the "rainbow club" membership is kept down to a few competent players.

Cheers

PS: Just what did else we expect from the Polaris Institute, anyway? No agenda there!... ::)
 
Back
Top