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Discussions related to privatization of SAR

Does the Government intend for all SAR to be privatized.  Does that mean the RCC's will be closed down and the private corporation sets up their own?  And capital equipment, thinking of big ticket items, like airplanes and helicopters, the private corporation would need those wouldn't it  Since  privatized wouldn't they need airports to be based out of, since the military (and I assume the bases too) are no longer in the picture.
This privatization would need a company with aircraft, pilots/aircrew, ground crew, and SAR techs.
Who ensures the civilian SAR techs maintain proficiency in skill sets.  For that matter who establishes standards
Just a couple quick thoughts off the top of my civilian head

Tom
 
expwor said:
Who ensures the civilian SAR techs maintain proficiency in skill sets. 

In the U.K. ( according to this article ), they seem to rely on former military members.

"Many pilots and crew are former armed services personnel. Six of the nine pilots who will be based at Humberside are ex-military, as are nine of the 10 rear crew. “It’s a bit like a reunion here of military crews I’ve flown with in the past,” said Forsyth." "Forsyth, herself a former military SAR commander..."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/30/pilot-defends-civilian-search-rescue-service-bristow
 
mariomike said:
In the U.K. ( according to this article ), they seem to rely on former military members.

"Many pilots and crew are former armed services personnel. Six of the nine pilots who will be based at Humberside are ex-military, as are nine of the 10 rear crew. “It’s a bit like a reunion here of military crews I’ve flown with in the past,” said Forsyth." "Forsyth, herself a former military SAR commander..."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/30/pilot-defends-civilian-search-rescue-service-bristow

And the 'poaching' rates are likely astronomical as a result.
 
He who shall not be named (or linked to) has written an update to the story over at the usual site.


How's that for cryptic?
 
ModlrMike said:
He who shall not be named (or linked to) has written an update to the story over at the usual site.

How's that for cryptic?
There's also some sources we can share  ;D
Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan has headed off a potentially divisive debate by declaring the Liberal government will not privatize military search and rescue.

Sajjan made the comments Tuesday in response to an NDP question, after the Citizen revealed that the government’s defence review included questions about whether there were “alternatives” to having the military conduct search and rescue missions.

“The previous government might have been looking at privatizing search and rescue,” Sajjan told the House of Commons. “But I can assure the member that this government is not, because the Canadian Armed Forces play a critical role in search and rescue.” ...
 
Ostrozac said:
Could the private sector handle SAR in the south of Canada? Absolutely.

There is ( non-private ) municipal SAR in the GTA.
The Toronto Police and Paramedic Marine Unit is responsible for 460 square miles of open water on Lake Ontario. 24/7/365. Their operational jurisdiction is from Etobicoke Creek (Peel Region) to Rouge River (Durham Region) and extending 13 nautical miles to the US/Canada border. They are also responsible for all waterways within Toronto.
http://torontoparamedicservices.ca/special-units-teams/marine-unit/

They also take care of Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR). 
http://torontoparamedicservices.ca/special-units-teams/heavy-urban-search-and-rescue/

 
mariomike said:
They also take care of Heavy Urban Search and Rescue (HUSAR). 
http://torontoparamedicservices.ca/special-units-teams/heavy-urban-search-and-rescue/

Now there's a worthy task that we will not have enough of on the 'Shake and Bake' Coast when the big one hits. If there's one thing the guvmint could pour money into - IMHO - it would be to increase this capability.
 
If they privatized all SAR in this country, what would happen to all the various volunteer SAR organizations that currently exist?

If a company's bread and butter is air search and rescue, for example, how are they going to feel about the existence of outfits like CASARA who do it for free?
 
Bass ackwards said:
If they privatized all SAR in this country, what would happen to all the various volunteer SAR organizations that currently exist?

Public or private ( preferably a public employer ), if I was a vollie, I would jump at any opportunity to get on the job.
 
mariomike's post should serve both as an example of what already exists on a volunteer basis on the one hand and the actual responsibility at law for rescue and coordination of rescue efforts for what I would term, for lack of better term the "commercial" side of things. Let me explain.

Mariomike talks of "responsibility" for 460 square miles of water and "operational jurisdiction" over it. This is incorrect. The City of Toronto has elected unilaterally to provide its citizens with a more advanced form of "lifeguard" service in view of the fact that  pleasure boating on the lake is an important leisure activity of this citizenry. No higher government charged Toronto with this task and Toronto has no legal obligation to provide it. Similarly, the policing on the water is the responsibility of the RCMP, but by agreement, they can delegate such authority to Toronto for those waters outside the city's local waters. In Quebec and Ontario, for instance, the QPP and OPP have marine divisions authorized to patrol the waters otherwise the responsibility of the RCMP.

We can be thankful that TO has elected to provide such service which is of good quality and of a higher level than would likely be provided by the Military/Coast Guard on the smaller scale (pleasure crafts) it is provided at.

Such local services, whether they call themselves "SAR" or not (SAR is not  protected trademark), are important resources for smaller scale emergency needs of a local nature and are very useful secondary resources to the JRCC's, but the JRCC's retain responsibility for actual distress. For instance, if JRCC Trenton received a call from a boater on the lake say five miles off Toronto Island saying they have lost someone overboard and can't find him, you can be absolutely sure that, while they may call on the TO police marine division to help, one or two big yellow birds or whirlybird from Trenton would quickly show up, followed by any red and white hull in the area and grey ones if any are available (the Navy has heavy Rhib's at Hamilton, Toronto and Kingston reserve units). In reverse, I don't think that the TO maritime unit would be the one going to do SAR if, in the middle of a bad storm, they happen to pick up a distress call from a cargo ship floundering mid-lake: they would pass it on to  Trenton.

These local initiatives would not be affected by any "privatization" of SAR. it is the large scale/commercial SAR that we are talking about here.

Here is what I mean by commercial. By analogy, let's think of the aids to navigation maintained by the Coast Guard. If there were no commercial traffic on the water - no cargo, no fishermen, only pleasure crafts for people's leisure - does anybody believe that the federal government would bother having a Coast Guard or with maintaining all these light house, transits and buoys? I don't think so. They would let any such matters in the hand of locals, should they wish to have some in their corner of the world.

I surmise it's the same for the SAR that the federal government is responsible for: The maritime side grew out of the lifeboat services - these services were meant to go after professional seamen that got in trouble: fishermen, cargos ships, people that had no choice but to go to sea in all weather to earn a living - not to go after pleasure boaters too stupid to wait the storm out before setting out. Again today, I suggest that such service only exists for such mariners, not to go after boater Joe who didn't put enough gas in his tank or Sam, who just got his head knocked out by the boom of his sailboat. That, when human life is a t stake, SAR assets go after boaters is just a bonus from the fact that the organization exists.

On the air side, let me ask this: would we have such an organization as we have now if there were no commercial air traffic? Imagine that the only planes are small one or two passenger private planes for leisure that don't require much more than a green field to take off and land. I don't think that the government would bother with providing airports, air navigation, air traffic services, and I suggest, bother to maintain a system of air search and paramedic services for all these individuals. The air SAR side of things exists to deal with the Boeing 737 that crashes way north of TO, for instance. That they can go after joe public and his piper airplane is just a bonus again.

So it's this large scale/commercial side of SAR that is at issue here, and that would not affect any local initiatives in any way, save coordination as secondary resources if need be, which would remain with whoever does the "large scale" SAR task. (For instance, someone mm talked of TO's HUSAR and someone else mentioned its usefulness for the big one on the West Coast. Well, TO's HUSAR would not just show up there on its own, without telling/asking anyone and just start to do its thing all by itself wherever they felt like it. This would be coordinated at a higher level, and that higher level is the JRCC's.) 
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Mariomike talks of "responsibility" for 460 square miles of water and "operational jurisdiction" over it. This is incorrect.

I was quoting their website: "The unit has a unique responsibility; it is the largest command, encompassing approximately 460 square miles of open water on Lake Ontario. The operational jurisdiction is from the Etobicoke creek (Peel Region) to Rouge River (Durham Region) and extending 13 nautical miles to the US/Canada border. Marine Unit is also responsible for all waterways within Toronto."



 
I'm not sure it's been linked or included in this post before, but here is some info on our SAR program.

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/mrgnc-mngmnt/rspndng-mrgnc-vnts/nss/prgrm-en.aspx

National Search and Rescue Program

The National Search and Rescue Program (NSP) is a Canada-wide horizontal program that integrates organizations and resources involved in the provision of search and rescue (SAR) services to Canadians, including SAR response and prevention. The responsibility for the NSP resides within Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada, through the National Search and Rescue Secretariat (NSS). The NSS' role is to serve as a central coordinator for the National SAR Program, working directly with federal, provincial/territorial as well as air, ground and marine volunteer SAR organizations involved in search and rescue activities

The National Search and Rescue Program is founded on two pillars, prevention and response with the following vision:

A Canada where the critical importance of Search and Rescue is reflected in a multi-jurisdictional approach to promoting individual, collective and organizational behaviour that minimizes the risk of injury or loss of life while maintaining timely and effective response services.

Within Canada, SAR activities span a multitude of jurisdictions:
•The Canadian Armed Forces are responsible for aeronautical incidents;
•The Canadian Coast Guard is responsible for marine incidents;
•Parks Canada is responsible within national parks; and
•Provincial and territorial governments are responsible for searches for missing persons including those who are lost or overdue on land or inland waters - commonly known as Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR), and often delegated to the police service of jurisdiction.

Notwithstanding these various jurisdictions, the National SAR Program attempts to achieve integration and interoperability amongst partners. Prevention, investigation, education, regulation and enforcement efforts span multiple jurisdictions, necessitating a shared responsibility for safety.

The National SAR Program bridges the efforts of federal, provincial, territorial, and local search and rescue authorities, as well as the contributions of the private sector, non-governmental organizations, and the volunteer community towards a common goal: saving lives. The framework is supported by government at all levels, first responders, and a trained network of SAR volunteers to provide a comprehensive safety net for Canadians.
------------------------------------------------------

Technically, the CAF is 'responsible' for aeronautical incidents, but we all know our SAR Sqn's and pers do much more than just aeronautical incidents.  I'd guess the majority of their calls are NOT aeronautical related and this is where things become expensive;  it costs money to fly a Cormorant around, even if only to Cape Chignecto to rescue hikers.  It also takes the SAR asset and crew out of the game for a certain time, and once you start a crew day, it keeps on ticking until it dies.

Privatizing SAR;  I think it would have to be inclusive of all areas and worded very carefully.  I have grown up and now work around SAR and SAR Sqns pretty much my entire life as a kid and for the past decade or so in the RCAF.  SAR (IMO) should continue to be part of the business of the CAF, not just because 'it has been', but because the CAF has been involved in saving a great many lives over the years.  Sure, holding Ready 2 can suck when you are SAR standby for a non-SAR unit.  If we can go to places like Iraq with the intent to save lives by helping destroy ISIS, I think we can also maintain our SAR Sqns. 

The average Canadians' opinion probably is 'what is SAR?  Is there an app for that?'.  ^-^
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
The day the Navy is mandated to provide offshore SAR is the day you cease to have a Navy. Our job is to fight and train to fight, not to save lives. If we have to  have the presence along Canada's coasts required to provide SAR, then we don't have any ship to deploy on anything else - so what's the point of spending all that money on warships.

What would you do if we had to got fight somewhere, like Gulf War I? Sorry old pal, no SAR this year, we're somewhere else.

I don't disagree at all, but logic sometimes is forced from the room when politics get involved. As for what you mention in your other posts, a big challenge for volunteer marine rescue (and others) is being called away from family dinner to go on a call, when you get back at 2:00am and the wife asks; "did you save a life" and you replay, "nah just another idiot with more beer than gas in their boat" It gets old pretty quick and the wife starts saying 'time for a new hobby".

In our local situation the closure of Kit's base and the local marine rescue group jumping up to say they can replace them, has left a very bad relationship between the CCG personal and the volunteers that will take years to mend. They used to work closely together in training and on search. You can bet training will be non-existent or unproductive. I hope things will be put aside during searches, but the close cooperation is completely gone. CCG tried to do the same in Powell River, the unions up there said, no one will volunteer to replace a laid off CCG crewman so the idea died. (they have a mixed crew of fulltime and volunteer) 
 
I was in no way implying that you made that up mariomike, only that you were the one who mentioned it in your post.

It does not change my two points, which are that (1) such local SAR resources would continue to exist even if the federal government decided to privatize its SAR function, as they are of a different order, and (2) that it is responsibility that  Toronto elected to take on itself - it was not charged with it by anyone else and does not relieve the proper authority in law from any responsibility.

Just a small example if I may to illustrate: The RCMP could not just come in and start investigating a murder that occurred at the corner of Yonge and Dundas. That's TO police legal responsibility and jurisdiction. But they could arrest someone on the water one hundred feet from the Toronto shore and charge them with drunk driving. Even if TO Police has an agreement with the Federal government giving them the capacity to act, the RCMP retains legal jurisdiction over all territorial and internal waters of Canada.

That's all I was driving at.

P.S.: Just saw EITS's excellent post above, and for clarity's sake: inland waters does not cover the great lakes, even though they are from a legal point of view "internal" waters of Canada. Inland means enclosed lakes (though, exceptionally, I believe that the CG has, or used to at least, a lifeboat on lake Winnipeg) and non-commercially navigable rivers.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
I was in no way implying that you made that up mariomike, only that you were the one who mentioned it in your post.

I was just a grunt in the big machine. Most of what I know about the politics of the institution is from what I read in the papers.  :)




 
CCG inland SAR response and navigational support has been gutted over the last decade and a bit. There was a summer program to put RHIB on major lakes, I think that's gone. No new navigational buoys, Office of Boating Safety gutted and no educational outreach.
 
The problem with Canadians is that most seem to be disconnected to the fact that their taxes and fees pay for services. Everyone wants to pay less tax, at all levels municipal, provincial and federal. But no one wants to experience a real cut in services to themselves. They are fine with services being cut to someone else, but not them. Canadians also suffer from “Someone has to do something” as in government or an organization. I note Americans are more likely to say “I needed to do something, so I did it”
 
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