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Discussions related to privatization of SAR

I was thinking a private on contract or provincial/territorial ownership. Pretty clear a leap in commercial drone/RPV tech is coming in the near future, they will fly themselves and the user just has to tell it where to go and then use the sensors. The North is the best place to push this. Less air traffic and it would reduce the outright costs and long term operational costs. If government thy could be seconded to the local Provincial Emergency program or Forestry department. Based at areas with existing small airfields without existing aircraft operating tenets. This would mean the local group could start an air search right away, weather permitting, while they call in other resources to assist. I would not give them to the military.   
 
Saw this regarding drones,

Published on: April 19, 2016

The wheels started to turn for Renfrew paramedic chief Michael Nolan in February 2012 after one of his crews helped rescue a snowmobiler whose machine had crashed through the ice on Calabogie Lake.

Paramedic Brad Smith later won a Governor General’s Award for bravery for his role in the dramatic rescue, using a canoe and his hands for paddles to get to the stranded man clinging to a crust of ice.

But Nolan thought there had to be a better way for paramedics to save lives — and money — in a jurisdiction that stretches its resources over 10,000 square kilometres from West Carleton to near Mattawa, and reaching into west Quebec and Algonquin Park.
http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/skys-the-limit-renfrew-paramedics-harness-the-power-of-drones
 
Colin P said:
I was thinking a private on contract or provincial/territorial ownership. Pretty clear a leap in commercial drone/RPV tech is coming in the near future, they will fly themselves and the user just has to tell it where to go and then use the sensors. The North is the best place to push this. Less air traffic and it would reduce the outright costs and long term operational costs. If government thy could be seconded to the local Provincial Emergency program or Forestry department. Based at areas with existing small airfields without existing aircraft operating tenets. This would mean the local group could start an air search right away, weather permitting, while they call in other resources to assist. I would not give them to the military. 

Actually, quite interesting.  Any idea on the sensors being pushed/trialed/tested?
 
Most commercial drone stuff is looking at LIDAR and infrared. Forestry, mapping and now transmission line inspection is the latest area of interest. Quad drones like the DJI Phantom 4 has come out with forward looking optical avoidance, expect this type of feature to be standard on all commercial drones over the next few years. I have heard that the helicopter companies have been complaining about drones, because they are eating away at a lot of their bread and butter contracts, in fact a couple of helicopter companies have actually started offering drones as part of their services. I can see autonomous drones flying remote pipelines and transmission lines on a regular basis.
http://droneanalyst.com/2014/10/28/gis-biggest-little-drone-market-world/

http://www.dronezon.com/learn-about-drones-quadcopters/introduction-to-uav-photogrammetry-and-lidar-mapping-basics/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIxYt7DkK5A

http://www.flir.co.uk/instruments/building/display/?id=60572
 
Your post made me do a little Google-fu on this stuff...

Here's one site I found that had some neat video.  Interesting stuff for sure!

http://www.phoenix-aerial.com/
 
Isn't it about time we pass on the SAR capability to law enforcement/first responders, the Canadian Coast Guard and private industry?
I say this for 3 main reasons;

1. The current SAR aircraft fleet of CH-149 Cormorant, CH-146, CC-130H and of course the new CC-295 "Guardian" could all be utilized much better for Army operations.
2. The amount of funding SAR capabilities eat up is almost 1/3rd of the RCAFs budget, if not more.
3. SAR is not military role, certainly not a primary or secondary role of any air force, and as our budget suggests, it's more important than our fighter fleet.

Another point is that by passing on this capability to first responders, private industry and other government agencies, we can create jobs and make money!

As for the current SAR techs, I would re-assign them as CSAR operators and have them mix in with CANSOFCOM, base SAR, D.A.R.T. and other units like that. I'd love any feedback on the topic, thank you!
 
Warm and fuzzy, politicians (all parties) like it more than anything CAF do along with distaster assistance, public too. Saving lives, not killing people. Won't change.

Mark
Ottawa
 
QuietSpike said:
2. The amount of funding SAR capabilities eat up is almost 1/3rd of the RCAFs budget, if not more.
Which would then be stripped from the CAF and sent to the Coast Guard, RCMP, etc if we gave up SAR.
 
QuietSpike said:
Isn't it about time we pass on the SAR capability to law enforcement/first responders, the Canadian Coast Guard and private industry?
I say this for 3 main reasons;

1. The current SAR aircraft fleet of CH-149 Cormorant, CH-146, CC-130H and of course the new CC-295 "Guardian" could all be utilized much better for Army operations.
2. The amount of funding SAR capabilities eat up is almost 1/3rd of the RCAFs budget, if not more.
3. SAR is not military role, certainly not a primary or secondary role of any air force, and as our budget suggests, it's more important than our fighter fleet.

Another point is that by passing on this capability to first responders, private industry and other government agencies, we can create jobs and make money!

As for the current SAR techs, I would re-assign them as CSAR operators and have them mix in with CANSOFCOM, base SAR, D.A.R.T. and other units like that. I'd love any feedback on the topic, thank you!

How much money you got?  Equivalent SAR civvy side would cost WAY MORE $$$$$$
 
As noted in a post I made a few months ago (IIRC), the SAR Sqn's are not 'just' SAR as well.  Many of them are Transport and Rescue.

What sustained army op's are in need of 295s and Corms?  Has the army asked for those assets ISO C Army activities?
 
QuietSpike said:
Isn't it about time we pass on the SAR capability to law enforcement/first responders, the Canadian Coast Guard and private industry?
I say this for 3 main reasons;

1. The current SAR aircraft fleet of CH-149 Cormorant, CH-146, CC-130H and of course the new CC-295 "Guardian" could all be utilized much better for Army operations.
2. The amount of funding SAR capabilities eat up is almost 1/3rd of the RCAFs budget, if not more.
3. SAR is not military role, certainly not a primary or secondary role of any air force, and as our budget suggests, it's more important than our fighter fleet.

Another point is that by passing on this capability to first responders, private industry and other government agencies, we can create jobs and make money!

As for the current SAR techs, I would re-assign them as CSAR operators and have them mix in with CANSOFCOM, base SAR, D.A.R.T. and other units like that. I'd love any feedback on the topic, thank you!

SAR is not a law enforcement task. While police will certainly assist with SAR, and in a smaller, local op may well have what’s needed, it’s not a task that requires law enforcement powers or authorities. Conversely, it IS a skill set that, to be done properly, needs considerable skills maintenance that would distract from core police, fire, or paramedic functions- all three services already being highly stretched for resources.

The military is already by far the organization best equipped, trained, deployed, and logistically capable of performing SAR. The skill sets and capabilities have other militarily relevant applications.

While there are always things that can be optimized or done better, I sincerely doubt that any deficiencies in Canada’s SAR middle exist because the wrong agency overall is filling the role.
 
Point 1.  If SAR went somewhere else, I'd almost guarantee the aircraft would go there as well; if it was a private organization it would be at rock bottom prices.  As a corollary,  why would we want to keep fleets that aren't to meet defined needs?
Point 2.  If the RCAF wasn't doing SAR, they wouldn't get to keep the money it cost to spend how they please.  It would be carved out of ths defence budget,  and probably more than what it currently costs to show how privatizing SAR saved money.

Edited to add: seems there was an avalanche if people saying the same thing at the same time...
 
I'm certain Sartech's would love making bank though from all that extra money they would be able to command! 

You would be spending $$$$Millions of dollars a year in personnel costs to offer equivalent services the Military does Civvie side. 

I guarantee it would not be cheaper!
 
Brihard said:
SAR is not a law enforcement task. While police will certainly assist with SAR, and in a smaller, local op may well have what’s needed, it’s not a task that requires law enforcement powers or authorities. Conversely, it IS a skill set that, to be done properly, needs considerable skills maintenance that would distract from core police, fire, or paramedic functions- all three services already being highly stretched for resources.

The military is already by far the organization best equipped, trained, deployed, and logistically capable of performing SAR. The skill sets and capabilities have other militarily relevant applications.

While there are always things that can be optimized or done better, I sincerely doubt that any deficiencies in Canada’s SAR middle exist because the wrong agency overall is filling the role.

Not sure about other provinces, but Saskatchewan Canada has volunteer organization to help relieve duties of volunteer Fire Departments and RCMP. It's called SARSAV. They utilize STARS helicopters when needed. They train solely in SAR, but are also volunteers and civilians and only number around 12,000 Canada wide.

Edit to add that they obviously wouldn't be suited for military SAR.

 
I dont think this is an either or situation more like government plus the private sector equals prpviding for the public safety. Another option would be for the military to charge if they are called on to rescue someone. Then there is the training value in providing SAR services.
 
Humphrey Bogart said:
I'm certain Sartech's would love making bank though from all that extra money they would be able to command! 

You would be spending $$$$Millions of dollars a year in personnel costs to offer equivalent services the Military does Civvie side. 

I guarantee it would not be cheaper!

Most likely it would be far more expensive and the service would not be as good.
 
Hamish Seggie said:
Most likely it would be far more expensive and the service would not be as good.

Just imagine the workers comp settlements from injuries, overtime, etc.

It would be astronomically more expensive.  The reality is services and capability would decline significantly. 
 
It is notable that when you look at the other nations that conduct SAR over large areas in the Arctic, although not always a defence task, they do tend to use unlimited liability uniformed forces — I’m thinking US Coast Guard and the Russian Maritime Border Guards. Privatized SAR might be fine for plucking yachtsmen out of well travelled waters, it won’t cut it for some of the tasks that Canada’s climate, terrain and lack of infrastructure demand.
 
QuietSpike said:
Isn't it about time we pass on the SAR capability to law enforcement/first responders, the Canadian Coast Guard and private industry?
I say this for 3 main reasons;

Not sure if you’re trolling or just ill-informed and honestly thinking you know a better way of doing things than what’s been refined over half a century.  Particularly with the belief that civilians can do things better for cheaper.

That said, assuming your seriously want answers to your questions:

QuietSpike said:
1. The current SAR aircraft fleet of CH-149 Cormorant, CH-146, CC-130H and of course the new CC-295 "Guardian" could all be utilized much better for Army operations.

To do what?  What Statement of Capability Deficiency has the Army issued that would be resolved that aren’t already addressed by aircraft such as....well, you know...CC-177, CC-130J, CH-147F and CH-146 and with all the training and experience in global mobility and operations that strategic and tactical airlifters and tactical aviators already do?

QuietSpike said:
2. The amount of funding SAR capabilities eat up is almost 1/3rd of the RCAFs budget, if not more.

Wrong.  CF-188 O&M and NP combined budgets ‘eat’ up approximately 1/2 of the RCAF/DGAEPM funding.  ATIP the CAF 2018 Cost Factors Manual.

QuietSpike said:
3. SAR is not military role, certainly not a primary or secondary role of any air force, and as our budget suggests, it's more important than our fighter fleet.

Another point is that by passing on this capability to first responders, private industry and other government agencies, we can create jobs and make money!

Incorrect again.  In Canada National SAR is in fact a military by federal legislation.. Also, again, your facts about the SAR funding vs fighter capability are quite mistaken (overstated).

Create new jobs to replaced the RCAF members released due to removal of the aforementioned aircraft fleets?  “We?” “Make money?” Who’s we?  Whose paying “us” (other than ‘us’?)


QuietSpike said:
As for the current SAR techs, I would re-assign them as CSAR operators and have them mix in with CANSOFCOM, base SAR, D.A.R.T. and other units like that. I'd love any feedback on the topic, thank you!

...once they passed selection, you mean.  Assuming you intended to say ‘CSAR’ operators (as opposed to CSOR operators), there is no such MOSID in the CAF/RCAF as CSAR Operator.  If you meant this as in the USAF Pararescue Jumper (PJ), then that’s only one member within the wider realm of Joint Personnel Recovery, and not something that Canada has investigated in earnest. If, on the other hand, you meant CSOR operators, then it bears noting that CANSOF Special Operators aren’t simply transferred from other units. They are selected and their own MOSID.  The proper concept is ‘selection-based occupational transfer.’

Others have pointed out the fallacy of expecting that while assets and roles would be transferred to another government department and/or some hybrid with civilian industry, the legacy money would remain behind in DND to do with as it wished for new ‘good ideas.’

:2c:

Regards
G2G
 
Ostrozac said:
It is notable that when you look at the other nations that conduct SAR over large areas in the Arctic, although not always a defence task, they do tend to use unlimited liability uniformed forces — I’m thinking US Coast Guard and the Russian Maritime Border Guards. Privatized SAR might be fine for plucking yachtsmen out of well travelled waters, it won’t cut it for some of the tasks that Canada’s climate, terrain and lack of infrastructure demand.

A good chunk of the SAR incidents in the North and Sub Arctic are resolved locally by local resources.
 
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