Discussions related to privatization of SAR

[GR66]

...

Within Canada, SAR activities span a multitude of jurisdictions:
•The Canadian Armed Forces are responsible for aeronautical incidents;
•The Canadian Coast Guard is responsible for marine incidents;
•Parks Canada is responsible within national parks; and
•Provincial and territorial governments are responsible for searches for missing persons including those who are lost or overdue on land or inland waters - commonly known as Ground Search and Rescue (GSAR), and often delegated to the police service of jurisdiction.


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What if instead of talking about "privatizing SAR" we simply examined the feasibility of transferring responsibility of the first line item from the CF to another government agency?  Transport Canada?  Public Safety Canada?  Keep the task government run but remove the responsibility from the CF so that the CF can focus on its core responsibilities?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You are right on Colin! That's why, of all the online forums related to the Lib's Defence Policy Review 2016, I am not touching, even with a ten foot (any left in Canada? No, just 3 meters ones) pole the Defence Budget Discussion Forum:

For one thing it is stupid to start with to have a forum on budget without even knowing what your other policies are going to be. For another, these are numbers and items that most people inside the government but outside defence don't even understand. To think that ordinary Canadians will be able to comment other than saying "It's OK/too much/not enough" without any reason other than their political outlook on life is ridiculous and a waste of time.

And you're bang on as regards the ailment of the Canadian psyche, Colin. It is unfortunately something that we have encouraged even for businesses when we started in the fifties and sixties with some good intentions social programs, like unemployment insurance. To wish to assist in a self financed program for structural changes in industry so people may adjust is one thing, but when we started to define requirements in such a way as to "cover" the off-season of seasonal industries in the outlying areas, it became a system to finance and subsidize the corporations operating there in season. If you only cut wood in winter and there is no other work there in summer, then let the industry pay its people extra so they remain available for next year. Don't ask me in manufacturing Canada to pay for it. It got even worse when we started using it to finance self employed people in cyclical industries, i.e. fisheries. In the US, the fisherman knows he his an independent business and its up to him to finance his whole operation or go under. He doesn't get government payments so he can continue to pay his mortgage on his boat during the off-season.

/RANT OFF 

 

[Brasidas]

He doesn't get government payments so he can continue to pay his mortgage on his boat during the off-season.

/RANT OFF

Isn't that the same country that pays farmers not to farm, though?

 

[mariomike]

What if instead of talking about "privatizing SAR" we simply examined the feasibility of transferring responsibility of the first line item from the CF to another government agency?  Transport Canada?  Public Safety Canada?

Does the right to refuse unsafe work ( ie: rescue ) apply to Transport Canada and Public Safety Canada employees?

 

[Kirkhill]

Does the right to refuse unsafe work apply to all federal employees? Excluding the CAF and RCMP, are certain other federal employees exempt?

On a related subject:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/german-soldiers-forced-to-leave-nato-exercise-early-due-to-overtime-limits-a6978766.html

German soldiers forced to leave Nato exercise early due to overtime limits
'It can’t be that we can’t fulfil our Nato obligations because of overtime'
Matt Payton Monday 11 April 2016

And a really cool, high tech weapon for the unionized UN soldier.  >

 

[mariomike]

And a really cool, high tech weapon for the unionized UN soldier.  >

Some union jobs have the right to refuse unsafe work, some don't. 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I knew in my day we could refuse to go in, but generally it was more the case of the Captain saying "No you will not", in rescue situation it's always good to have an experienced person outside of the loop being the cool head.

 

[Bass ackwards]

The average Canadians' opinion probably is 'what is SAR?  Is there an app for that?'.  ^-^

From an article about SAR on The Weather Network: 

Last month, Nunavut MLA Pauloosie Keyootak and two family members were found alive after being lost in the tundra for 9 days by a search and rescue group aboard a plane. Keyootak says the group got lost because of bad weather and a faulty GPS app on a smartphone.
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/liberal-government-considers-privatizing-search-and-rescue/66292/

My initial post was concerned more with how privatized -and therefore likely unionized- SAR types would interact with volunteers who might well be regarded as a threat in union eyes.

Seems it's all a moot point now, anyways.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What if instead of talking about "privatizing SAR" we simply examined the feasibility of transferring responsibility of the first line item from the CF to another government agency?  Transport Canada?  Public Safety Canada?  Keep the task government run but remove the responsibility from the CF so that the CF can focus on its core responsibilities?

The money would go with it, if it did happen.  So, no real net gain IMO.  There is a possibility that the GoC thought 'it we privatize or at least remove the CAF from the picture, we don't have to go thru with FWSAR procurement/replacement and could save some bucks there".

I think the SAR the CF does it best left where it is.  Following the UK model, they also got rid of their MPAs.  How'd that decision work out for them?

 

[mariomike]

My initial post was concerned more with how privatized -and therefore likely unionized- SAR types would interact with volunteers who might well be regarded as a threat in union eyes.

Only this. It applies to secondary employment,

"Secondary Employment: Working a secondary job part-time, paid on call, volunteer or otherwise as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, whether in the public or private sector, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any affiliate or which materially erodes the conditions of work of any affiliate."
http://twohatter.com/resolution%20no%202.htm

 

[daftandbarmy]

From an article about SAR on The Weather Network: 

Last month, Nunavut MLA Pauloosie Keyootak and two family members were found alive after being lost in the tundra for 9 days by a search and rescue group aboard a plane. Keyootak says the group got lost because of bad weather and a faulty GPS app on a smartphone.
http://www.theweathernetwork.com/news/articles/liberal-government-considers-privatizing-search-and-rescue/66292/

My initial post was concerned more with how privatized -and therefore likely unionized- SAR types would interact with volunteers who might well be regarded as a threat in union eyes.

Seems it's all a moot point now, anyways.

My brother in law is with the RC Marine SAR as a volunteer. They are apparently highly regarded by the 'Regs' who value their local knowledge and the extra manpower. Without them, the full timers would be strapped.

He also mentioned how lots of people are getting into trouble by relying on their GPS smartphone apps as opposed to more reliable navigation tools like, you know, a map/charts and compass.

Apparently even Siri has limitations....

 

[Kirkhill]

....

He also mentioned how lots of people are getting into trouble by relying on their GPS smartphone apps as opposed to more reliable navigation tools like, you know, a map/charts and compass.

Apparently even Siri has limitations....

My brother-in-law, after having visited our house once, relied on his phone for directions.  He and my wife's sister got to know one of the neighbours after they walked into the neighbour's house without ceremony.

One of my bosses, returning to Montreal from Upstate New York found himself lost on logging roads in the Adirondacks or the Green Mountains, having missed the turn-off for Cornwall.

 

[Journeyman]

My brother-in-law, after having visited our house once, relied on his phone for directions. 

A real man doesn't need no steenkin' directions  -- we just know! 

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My brother-in-law, after having visited our house once, relied on his phone for directions.  He and my wife's sister got to know one of the neighbours after they walked into the neighbour's house without ceremony.

One of my bosses, returning to Montreal from Upstate New York found himself lost on logging roads in the Adirondacks or the Green Mountains, having missed the turn-off for Cornwall.

Yes same just happened to me going to Halfway river FN, GPS told us to take a turnoff we quickly saw that it was unlikely, but got stuck turning around in the snow. The problem in Canada is that most of the publicly available GIS data is ancient history. I should add that with more devices like Spot and such, there should be less focus on search and more on rescue in the future. 

 

[dapaterson]

One of my bosses, returning to Montreal from Upstate New York found himself lost on logging roads in the Adirondacks or the Green Mountains, having missed the turn-off for Cornwall.

Well, if the GPS kept him out of Cornwall, it sounds like success to me...

 

[Kirkhill]

Well, if the GPS kept him out of Cornwall, it sounds like success to me...

As a one-time denizen of Cornwall - six months downwind of the pulp-mill - I quite agree.  Although I understand the mill has gone away now.

 

[sandyson]

Civil or military, would RPV employment as searching tools be of use to cut some costs?  Rescue would still be necessary but cheaper search platforms may cover more area at less cost.

 

[YZT580]

RPV deployment just means doubling the time required to effect a rescue since you would still have to deploy a manned aircraft once the rescuees were found.  Now if you could find a means to deploy RPVs in conjunction with a manned asset you would have an advantage.  Unfortunately though, many search operations are conducted in less than favourable weather conditions, thus limiting the effectiveness of an RPV.  So, the short answer is they could be useful but not at the cost of reducing available manned assets so they would add to the cost of S&R

 

[Colin Parkinson]

An RPV may be more useful where there are no dedicated assets, such as the North, they can start searching as the larger SAR are inbound. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Where are they launching out of?  How much is the link to the platform from the GCS going to cost?  North = sat comms IIRC.

If you are going to try to do a search with a UAV, what sensors are you intending to put on it?  Who will it 'belong' to (probably RCAF but...who knows).

UAVs are great for looking with a straw.  In bad Wx and Vis, they are going to be next to useless IMO.  The search area might be clear, but the transit 'to' the search area might have Wx that will keep them on the ground. 

Keep in mind, you can have a GCS anywhere in the country that can 'fly the mission', but you still have to have a launch/recovery station with people to fly and service them.  They don't transit as fast as people seem to think they do (thinking along the line of Pred/Reap).

I think there is a place for them to possibly add to the search cap for a surface ship or something that is already in the area, but other than that, I think you're looking for a manned platform that can make it to the search area thru or above Wx, search in degraded Wx (Mk 1 Eyeball) and search if you're sensors are degraded as well (Wx, system failures).

And as someone already mentioned, unless the UAV is carrying something like a SKAD, it is going to be able to do nothing.  If you dropped a survival pack from a wing pod, it might be of some use (basic survival kit, comm's kit, etc) but that is going to slow your transit down even more with extra drag.

Seeing a PIW is hard on a manned platform with Mk 1 eyeballs and sensors.  A UAV would be even less capable than a manned platform.

:2c: