Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[Michael OLeary]

Michael:
I didn't intend it to become a pissing contest. But you must admit coming to PRes from RegF must have been a bit of a shock to you, not having all those little goodies available that RegF take for granted. I have been retired from the CF for over 20 years but sill maintain contact with my old unit and with other friends in other units I made over the years I was active and the feedback I get is "SIERRA SIERRA, DELTA DELTA"  Seems things haven't changed much over the years! I may be wrong but I can see a great need for improvement in both PRes and RegF attitudes towards each other.I am just looking back over my own experiences and don't see much change over the years I have been retired.

Cheers,

tango22a

Sorry to disappoint but it wasn't a shock at all. I have retained connections within the Reserves throughout my Reg F career, served as RSS twice (once RSS and once RFC), had a posting as Training Centre staff among others.  I knew exactly what I was coming into.

Maybe you need to critically examine where your feedback is coming from.  There are many who have built their own opinions for years on a foundation of criticism and who aren't looking for workable solutions.

 

[tango22a]

T2B:

If you want to do convoy escort in a G-Wagon in AFGHANISTAN feel free! I sure wouldn't!

tango22a

P.S. Please refer to reply #1031

PPS: Using G-Wagon for Convoy Escort (Dom Ops ) in Canada...NO problem

 

[McG]

If you want to do convoy escort in a G-Wagon in AFGHANISTAN feel free! I sure wouldn't!

Okay.  It is now clear you are just being argumentative for your own ammusement, and playing vicitm for your own self-gratification.  Otherwise, you might show some indication that you are fully reading the replies that are being made to you.

Nobody suggested the PRes do convoy escort in Afghanistan with G-Wagon.  It was suggested that it was an adaquate vehicle for training in Canada especially when compared to the fact that even the regular force do not have the vehicles used overseas.

 

[Haggis]

Michael:
I didn't intend it to become a pissing contest. But you must admit coming to PRes from RegF must have been a bit of a shock to you, not having all those little goodies available that RegF take for granted. I have been retired from the CF for over 20 years but sill maintain contact with my old unit and with other friends in other units I made over the years I was active and the feedback I get is "SIERRA SIERRA, DELTA DELTA"  Seems things haven't changed much over the years! I may be wrong but I can see a great need for improvement in both PRes and RegF attitudes towards each other.I am just looking back over my own experiences and don't see much change over the years I have been retired.

Cheers,

tango22a

Even though this post wasn't aimed at me, I cannot let this pass.

I have seen monumental positive changes in the training and employment of Reservists of all stripes (Army Navy and Air Force) in the past 20 years.  I have also seen a widespread acceptance of Reservists by the rank and file and most of the leadership of the Regular Force.  Yes, there are institutional dinosaurs but they are becoming extinct.

In my opinion, the Big Thick Black Line between Reg F and Res Fis now gray and scuffed.

Are we where we each want us to be?  Hell NO!

Are we moving in the right direction as an institution?  Not entirely.

Are we trying to steer this thing in the right direction?  Yes.  But it's a big ship with a little engine and a mismatched crew with an almost maxed out gas card.

Personally, as a Reservist, I find your attitude towards change exasperating.  I understand that your experience is dated and I'm afraid you're simply the purveyor of "bad data" from your former comrades.  Your former unit is but a small sample of the CF Reserve of today.  Look outside that petri dish at the wider Reserve community to see what's been accomplished.

 

[dapaterson]

And this is why little gets done for some parts of the Reserve community.  Those who will settle for nothing but Leo 2A6s in Windsor and refuse to budge on their demands get heard, and ignored.

Is the G-Wagon an adequate training vehicle?  Yes.  Perfect?  No.  Better than an Iltis?  Yes.  Can sldiers in such a vehicle practice skills that are applicable to other platforms?  Yes.

Are there systemic, Army (Reg and Res) wide issues with a lack of comms gear?  Yes.  Do the Regular Force have a secret hidden stockpile, where people with a secret handshake can gather and cackle at their ill gotten stash, and gloat about how they are withholdign the gear from those who need it to train?  No.  (Or if they do, I've never learned the handshake)

 

[tango22a]

Haggis:
I am not against change but am against change just for the sake of change. If armoured recce soldiers are employed on roto where do they end up? CIMIC, GDuties, PSYops, etc. Not in their trade. Why? Because they cannot get access to trg opportunities to keep them current on modern equipment. This is a failing right across the board as even RegF people have trouble keeping current due to lack of trg time, eqpt and above all MONEY. The trickle-down theory seems to have failed the PRes again. Say for example if the 1300 trucks on order are not followed up by a larger order for SMP vehicles  for the RegF, how many of these will trickle-down to PRes? Not many! Please remember what happened to the AVGP family and especially the Bison. Change is great ...if the change does not interfere with the ability to do the job...whatever it is.

Cheers,

tango22a

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Armd Recce situation is entirely a product of the Armd Corps.  If any black hatters want to bitch and complain, look in a mirror, and go to the annual branch gabfest, and vent there. It's not the Army, it's not the Reg Force - it's the Armoured Corps doing things to itself.

Self inflicted situations get no sympathy from me.

100%. We've been asking the Corps for years to define the role & doctrine for Reserve Armour. They won't. Why? I can't say. I have my ideas, but.....

Anyway, without a defined role and doctrine, we can't process and gain an entitlement to a proper TO&E. Without that we're simply in a holding pattern and a pool of bodies to draw on with some very basic black hat skills. What equipment we are given has nothing to do with a specific job, but are just more shiny trinket to keep ourselves occupied for awhile. We are the original red headed step child.

I have no problem with a re-role. It will be the Corp's loss and they can stew in their juices. All I'm saying, and this also goes back to Infanteer's post, is that you have to let the smart, young, intelligent troops on the floor in on the ground floor of this. Don't blindside them. They want to be included. Knowledge is power. Don't do all the planning and paper signing, and then turn around and say "When you come in next Thursday, you'll find ROWPUs where your Gwagons were parked, and the vehs are gone cause you're not armoured anymore". Oh, "And you'll damn well like it!"

Don't treat them like mindless morons.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

And this is why little gets done for some parts of the Reserve community.  Those who will settle for nothing but Leo 2A6s in Windsor and refuse to budge on their demands get heard, and ignored.

Is the G-Wagon an adequate training vehicle?  Yes.  Perfect?  No.  Better than an Iltis?  Yes.  Can sldiers in such a vehicle practice skills that are applicable to other platforms?  Yes.

Are there systemic, Army (Reg and Res) wide issues with a lack of comms gear?  Yes.  Do the Regular Force have a secret hidden stockpile, where people with a secret handshake can gather and cackle at their ill gotten stash, and gloat about how they are withholdign the gear from those who need it to train?  No.  (Or if they do, I've never learned the handshake)

Bullshit. It's not the attitude here in Windsor, nor has it been. I strongly resent the fact that you've not only implied this of us, but are trying to reinforce your stupid and pitiful stance, with us at the heart of your example. You obviously know nothing about us. Please desist from your crap theories and stick to the many other things that you actually know about and expound on well.

 

[tango22a]

dapaterson:

I am not advocating Leo 2A6 in Windsor. There is no place to train with it and maintenance would be a real B****h. What I am advocating is the purchase of a common-to-corps Recce Veh that both the RegF and PRes could train on. It ain't gonna happen so we will just continue muddling along until Armoured Recce is no longer a PRes trade and re-role or dis-band the PRes armored Regiments.

tango22a

FENNEC anyone?

 

[dapaterson]

I chose Windsor because of the participants here, and made the "Leo 2A6" comment precisely because it was way out there and no one would take it seriously (besides, we all know that the GGHG are the ones who really need heavy armour protection and 120mm guns, being just a few clicks from Jane and Finch).  It was not a slam against everyone in Windsor by any stretch of the imagination - if taken that way, I apologize.

But there are stubborn unyielding attitudes that are almost to that extreme that attempt to prevent any change or progress.  Generally, in a change process you've got two choices: Get engaged and have some control over your own destiny, or stall, stop and delay until something gets forced upon you.  Too much of the Reserve community fights any change tooth and nail and then ends up behind the eight ball.


Is there a need to be smarter?  Yes.  Is there a need to build some better Reg/Res commonalities (and not only in the Armd world)?  Of course.

A common to corps Armd recce veh is fine in theory, difficult in practice depending on weapons systems (ranges required) and maintenance requirements.  It woould probably end up consolidated in a few select locations to ensure a critical mass available to train (vice each unit having one or two); most units would prefer to have equipment in their lines.  I don't have a simple, magic solution for this (other than, perhaps, returning to the old model of having different type of Armd units - those close to Reg F bases with the equipment could train on the kit and be tasked to augment those Reg F units, other units would train on other kit for other tasks.  That proposal was shot down by D Armd in 05 or 06.)

What's the answer for the Armd Corps?  I do not know.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Bullshit. It's not the attitude here in Windsor, nor has it been. I strongly resent the fact that you've not only implied this of us, but are trying to reinforce your stupid and pitiful stance, with us at the heart of your example. You obviously know nothing about us. Please desist from your crap theories and stick to the many other things that you actually know about and expound on well.

recceguy,

The point being made really had nothing to do with "Leo 2A6s in Windsor" specifically.  It was an allusion to the fact that there are many who are fixated on a specific, or sometimes not so specific, solution, and any attempts to find a workable option are met with derisions, scorn and a lack of cooperation.

Remember the plan that saw limited numbers of AVGP spread out to garrisons with no effective plan to share them for collective training and as each went VOR because of a lack of local maintenance they sat in compounds.  That was declared by some to be a failure to support the Militia even though available equipment was distributed on the time-honoured but ineffective "everyone gets the same sized slice of pie" approach.

When that didn't work people came up with pool vehicles in the LFA TCs, supported by the local maintenance structure.  That didn't work because units didn't want to cooperate fully  on the sharing requirements and complained that the vehicles weren't in their home garrisons for training.  And that was a failure because some said that the Reg F "controlled" the resource.

And now we see here that in lieu of Iltis, G-Wagons aren't good enough for training because that's not what's used in A'stan.  When the entire Army is struggling to meet its equipment requirements, what, exactly, is a workable solution that will satisfy EVERY Reserve unit (and every Reservist in all three Messes)?  Someone will always be ready to express their personal dissatisfaction and claim to represent a larger body.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

OK, before this goes any further and we keep going around in circles with the misconception that we need RG-31..........or Fennecs and this is the prevailing attitude in the current Mo, especially in Res Armour, please go and have a hard look at tango22a profile. His is not the prevailing attitude, nor has it been around here for quite some time. Notwithstanding the avatar, and his long, honourable association as part of the Regimental family, he does not speak for us. Nor has he for quite some time. His opinions are his alone.

Sorry to throw you under the bus brother

 

[tango22a]

recceguy:
No Problems....the view was fantastic!!

Guess I'll have to change my avatar.

Cheers,

tango22a

 

[Fishbone Jones]

recceguy:
No Problems....the view was fantastic!!

Guess I'll have to change my avatar.

Cheers,

tango22a

Nope, you can keep it. You earned it.

 

[tango22a]

recceguy:

Think I better change it....I don't want to bring down the Wrath of God on my old Regiment with my out-dated babbling.

Cheers,

tango22a

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Are you proposing that the Reserves no longer match the CF structure of command?  That we have two seperate command structures for two identical organizations?

No.  The structure is still Sub-sub-unit Comd/Ldr, Sub-unit OC, Unit CO.  Rank is not a qualification or appointment.  If a sub-unit has a healthy parade sheet with lots of bona fide and filled positions for Lts and a few Capts, then a Maj may very well be in order.  But if the structure is kept deliberately lean on the top end to focus "reserve PYs" on the rank-and-file positions, then a rank level ceiling curtails the temptation to promote prematurely.  I'd rather see 3 platoon commanders and a company 2I/C - all Lts - competing for one OC (Capt) slot than 3 platoon Lts competing for one 2I/C (Capt) slot, and the 2I/C rising automatically to the OC's (Maj) slot.

>I find your "patronage games" comment out of line and offensive.  All officers, Reg and Res, must qualify for their promotions and appointments.

Qualify != merits advancement/appointment/promotion.  If there were no patronage games, the LFRR wouldn't have met so much resistance from centres of patronage and political games.  You may never have observed the "whose turn is it" mentality, but I have.

 

[George Wallace]

No.  The structure is still Sub-sub-unit Comd/Ldr, Sub-unit OC, Unit CO.  Rank is not a qualification or appointment.  If a sub-unit has a healthy parade sheet with lots of bona fide and filled positions for Lts and a few Capts, then a Maj may very well be in order.  But if the structure is kept deliberately lean on the top end to focus "reserve PYs" on the rank-and-file positions, then a rank level ceiling curtails the temptation to promote prematurely.  I'd rather see 3 platoon commanders and a company 2I/C - all Lts - competing for one OC (Capt) slot than 3 platoon Lts competing for one 2I/C (Capt) slot, and the 2I/C rising automatically to the OC's (Maj) slot.

I really don't see anything radical, new or different here.  It is already a fact in places.  As for "automatically rising to Major", that is fiction.  No one is rising automatically to Major.  They have to become qualified.  If the Training System passes them on their AOC and all their other courses, then they must soon be ready.......Unless you want to say that the Training System isn't maintaining high enough standards....

 

[Michael OLeary]

I really don't see anything radical, new or different here.  It is already a fact in places.  As for "automatically rising to Major", that is fiction.  No one is rising automatically to Major.  They have to become qualified.  If the Training System passes them on their AOC and all their other courses, then they must soon be ready.......Unless you want to say that the Training System isn't maintaining high enough standards....

I guess when numbers are small enough that the line of succession past a certain point is a single file, then you get to consider passing of courses the only criteria for promotion.

Funny how we only seem to talk abut officers in these conversations, though, isn't it?

 

[George Wallace]

I guess when numbers are small enough that the line of succession past a certain point is a single file, then you get to consider passing of courses the only criteria for promotion.

Funny how we only seem to talk abut officers in these conversations, though, isn't it?

You know Michael, your little "funny how we only talk about officers bit" is getting a little tiring. 

As for passing courses being the only criteria for promotion, perhaps you would like to enlighten us as to where we can get promoted without any courses.

Lighten up!

 

[aesop081]

Funny how we only seem to talk abut officers in these conversations, though, isn't it?

Yup, it is all people seem to talk about. The reality however is that the same goes on in the NCM side of the house.

We all know someone who shouldnt have passed their PLQ/ILQ/ALQ/whatever........

You know Michael, your little "funny how we only talk about officers bit" is getting a little tiring. 

It may be tiring but hes correct.