Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[dapaterson]

Apples and oranges.  $20B is P,O&M and capital across the CF.  $1M is a slice of P,O&M only for one unit, where they don't pay many of the costs associated with operating - units don't pay for infrastructure, equipment, ammo, IMPs, Reg F pay, base support...  in short, the numbers can't be compared.

There is a significant difference between the costs of Regs and Res, but 40:1 is RTFO.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Total defense spending $20 billion - 50,0000 members - $400,000 per - mixes soldiers with frigates but informative.

And base infrastructure and schools and a variety of things used by both Reg and Res units.

See: http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/1/index-eng.asp

The cost of increasing military strength by 1,000 regular personnel is about $150 million annually – and this does not include the associated equipment, infrastructure and training. Overall, just over 50 per cent of National Defence’s budget is spent on personnel.

By those figures, the costs of Reg F personnel exempt of infrastructure is $150,000 per person on average.

$150,000 / 365 days = $410 per person per day

Your figures for a Reserve unit offer $1,000,000 for 100 pers = $10,000 per person.

Reserve units are funded historically at about 35 days per person (someone can correct me if they have new figures.)

$10,000 / 35 days = $285 per man per day

So, we're spending about 70% per person in the Reserves of what we do on a Reg Force member.  The major difference is likely in the benefits that Reserves aren't entitled to as Class "A" soldiers - i.e. full time medical, etc.

 

[aesop081]

Total defense spending $20 billion - 50,0000 members - $400,000 per - mixes soldiers with frigates but informative. 

Not even informative as you take an overly simplistic view of unrelated statistics.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Dennis Ruhl:
If you don't start backing up your claims with facts...i.e. credible links... then you will be introduced to the Warning System for passing false information which is contrary to the forum guidelines. So in a nutshell back up your claims or withdraw your comments....

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[dapaterson]

$150,000 / 365 days = $410 per person per day

Your figures for a Reserve unit offer $1,000,000 for 100 pers = $10,000 per person.

Reserve units are funded historically at about 35 days per person (someone can correct me if they have new figures.)

$10,000 / 35 days = $285 per man per day

So, we're spending about 70% per person in the Reserves of what we do on a Reg Force member.  The major difference is likely in the benefits that Reserves aren't entitled to as Class "A" soldiers - i.e. full time medical, etc.

Depending on which LFA the unit posting those figures was from, and when that funding was granted changes things considerably.

The national funding model assigns 37.5 days (Sept-May) plus 7 days collective training (summer or other) to each LFA for each soldier in their class A target strength, plus CLDA (old FOA), plus O&M, plus some full-time Reserve positions.

Regional variations make it difficult to compare units in two different LFAs (or sometimes within the same LFA).  Different levels of decentralization between LFAs and CBGs leads to differing unit funding levels that may or may not be material - for example, units in 38 CBG have full-time Reservists paid by the CBG HQ, not the unit; in 33 CBG the units hold that funding.  So 38 CBG units appear to have smaller budgets than their peers in 33 CBG, but it's an accounting artifact.

The "simple" version of the funding for a unit would be:

Auth class A strength * (37.5 days per person + 7 days per person + CLDA for some trg events + O&M factor) + Auth class BA strength * (365 days per person + CLDA + O&M)


LFDTS holds individual training funds, which would be on top of the funding above.


LFAs and their subordinate ASGs may, of their own volition, download other funds to units to pay for expenses such as utilities or rented transportation - this skews some reporting, as again, there isn't a uniform standard nor reporting framework.


Frankly, DND's chart of accounts and financial reporting are both a mess - but that's much larger than just a Reserve force issue.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Total defense spending $20 billion - 50,0000 members - $400,000 per - mixes soldiers with frigates but informative.  The militia numbers came off a regimental website showing a $1 million budget and a bit over 100 members.  I can't find it at the moment.  I wouldn't think it an unreasonable number.

I was thinking state guard units as opposed to USMC reserve units.  In any unit I was in the mess fun started after the training ended.

Others have already responded very well to the methodology behind your numbers, a methodology that is highly suspect for all the reasons given. Once you actually find a number that is based in some reality you will need to find a "so what" for that ratio. How do you measure effectiveness per dollar spent? Once you have done that, I am still wondering what the point of your exercise is. I don't want this to be an issue of Reg vs Res, while it seems to me that it is your start point and end state.

What is your experience with National Guard or Army Reserve units? You might just find that they are organized along the lines suggested by those advocating amalgamation.

My point on mess nights was that for the seven years I served in the Reserves I felt that the point of the training night was oriented more towards the social aspect. We certainly trained for three periods and had O Gps, etc, but the point seemed to be to maintain contact as opposed to training. That aspect (the social bonding) is indeed important in a volunteer organization, but I noted that the USMC unit I worked with got by without any training nights - they only drilled one weekend a month and one two week exercise. They also deployed en masse and could be counted on to do so. A side bonus was that the individual Marines could travel long distances to the monthly drills, with some of them even flying. This would not be practical for weekly training nights. As a reserve BC and Ops O I felt that we got much more value out of weekends than on the equivalent number of training nights.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

As a reserve BC and Ops O I felt that we got much more value out of weekends than on the equivalent number of training nights.

That's because those that run things try to make a Fri night to Sun aft encompass six days of training : They constantly forget that most of those people (Cl A) have already worked an 8-12 hr shift before they showed up, then drive 6 hours each way to\from camp and have to head back to work when they return, some on midnights. After a half dozen IMPs and six hours sleep spread over the weekend.

But for some that are on Cl B and get the following Monday off (Brigade CTO) and spend the weekend in 'planning centres' (dry heated mod or CPs), it's no big deal is it?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Even a simple weekend training event spent at the Garrison location on weapons training could reap more dividends than four evenings with the same material. Regading your remarks on those running things I seem to recall that the CO and/or OC were the ones deciding on the training plan for an exercise. The commander should be the ones setting the schedule and the tempo. The day staff then works to iron out the details but the commanders are in command.

That being said I do recall some exercises where we did indeed try to do too much in one weekend (or in a single week exercise). This can happen in any organization.

Resentment over CTO could, perhaps, go to another thread.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I agree. Just venting

 

[Nfld Sapper]

The national funding model assigns 37.5 days (Sept-May) plus 7 days collective training (summer or other) to each LFA for each soldier in their class A target strength, plus CLDA (old FOA), plus O&M, plus some full-time Reserve positions.

The "simple" version of the funding for a unit would be:

Auth class A strength * (37.5 days per person + 7 days per person + CLDA for some trg events + O&M factor) + Auth class BA strength * (365 days per person + CLDA + O&M)


LFDTS holds individual training funds, which would be on top of the funding above.


LFAs and their subordinate ASGs may, of their own volition, download other funds to units to pay for expenses such as utilities or rented transportation - this skews some reporting, as again, there isn't a uniform standard nor reporting framework.


Frankly, DND's chart of accounts and financial reporting are both a mess - but that's much larger than just a Reserve force issue.

Slight tangent to this, how does class B at the schools factor into this (if any)?

 

[c4th]

Even a simple weekend training event spent at the Garrison location on weapons training could reap more dividends than four evenings with the same material. ...

Of course it could.  The PRes is very good at utilizing 18-20 hours of a 24 hour day.  Whereas, a well utilized four hour training night is still a four hour training night.  That being said, the dividend would only be budgetary.  Based on the training facilities that are available at most Reserve armouries I would think the time would be better spent in the field. 

This wheel has already been invented and discarded.  Personally I was in a PRes unit (Total Farce) in the early to mid 90's that stopped parade nights in favour of a one Saturday per month scheme.  It failed.  If a res soldier misses one training night, typically it isn't a big deal.  If he missed a Saturday, he would probably be NES.  The demographic of PRes troops is probably best trained in the way that it has been trained for about 90 odd years. 

Personally I am impressed with the quality of PRes soldier that continue to augment line units and those sub units that are raised entirely by the PRes.  As long as their system continues to send the best soldiers to operations I don't see why it needs to be changed in some ill-conceived experiment to improve the bottom third non paraders.

If the roll of the PRes is taken seriously then they will continue to produce good citizen soldiers.

TNO

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You are running out of time Mr Ruhl

 

[dapaterson]

Slight tangent to this, how does class B at the schools factor into this (if any)?

Depends.  Most schools have a permanent Reserve establishment, year round class B positions.  There are also incremental summer positions, where LFDTS holds the funds as part of the overall Reserve indiv trg allocation.  Finally, there is the individual training cadre backfill funding, an interim measure where the VCDS has provided the Army with money to hire reservists to backfill Reg F positions vacant due to op tempo.  That is new money for the Army, but for a limited time.  As it's for indiv trg, again, it's money in LFDTS' hands.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Of course it could.  The PRes is very good at utilizing 18-20 hours of a 24 hour day.  Whereas, a well utilized four hour training night is still a four hour training night.  That being said, the dividend would only be budgetary.  Based on the training facilities that are available at most Reserve armouries I would think the time would be better spent in the field. 

This wheel has already been invented and discarded.  Personally I was in a PRes unit (Total Farce) in the early to mid 90's that stopped parade nights in favour of a one Saturday per month scheme.  It failed.  If a res soldier misses one training night, typically it isn't a big deal.  If he missed a Saturday, he would probably be NES.  The demographic of PRes troops is probably best trained in the way that it has been trained for about 90 odd years. 

Personally I am impressed with the quality of PRes soldier that continue to augment line units and those sub units that are raised entirely by the PRes.  As long as their system continues to send the best soldiers to operations I don't see why it needs to be changed in some ill-conceived experiment to improve the bottom third non paraders.

If the roll of the PRes is taken seriously then they will continue to produce good citizen soldiers.

TNO

I was also in a PRes unit in the early 90s. What I found as a Troop Leader was that my soldiers who had real civilian jobs could commit to the weekends if we got them the training calendar early enough but the weekly evenings were a burden. We then let them miss the Thursday nights as long as they made the weekends. Those weekends were either in the field or at the IMR conducting gunnery. Getting an interesting training calendar out in September that stayed firm seemed to be the best attendance helper.

I agree that field time is a better use of resources than a garrison weekend - my point was that you still get more out of a weekend than a series of evenings regardless of field or not. In my USMC Reserve example that was exactly how they operated - IIRC ten weekends and a two week exercise. The ten weekends were generally spent on the range (Camp Grayling or something like that) with the two week exercise at a different training centre each year (amphib, mountain, Norway etc). No training nights, just training.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Depends.  Most schools have a permanent Reserve establishment, year round class B positions.  There are also incremental summer positions, where LFDTS holds the funds as part of the overall Reserve indiv trg allocation.  Finally, there is the individual training cadre backfill funding, an interim measure where the VCDS has provided the Army with money to hire reservists to backfill Reg F positions vacant due to op tempo.  That is new money for the Army, but for a limited time.  As it's for indiv trg, again, it's money in LFDTS' hands.

Gotcha Paterson thanks for the info.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Having experienced both Canadian and USMC reserve training models, I'd say that something in the middle would be of greater benefit.

Within the Canadian context, many weekly parade nights were of little training value, but as mentioned, good for maintaining social contact, and building the bonds at the crew/section/troop/platoon level.
On the USMC side of things, our drill weekends tended to be trying to stuff 10 pounds of sh*t into a 5 pound bag.  Not only did we try to do some field training, but were constantly bombarded with the other 'check in the box' type stuff, i.e. sexual harassment briefings, suicide prevention, annual counter-intel briefing, etc. which would eat up alot of otherwise valuable training time.  If it was a garrison weekend we'd generally show up on friday night, train until 1 or 2 in the morning with lectures and such, reveille at 0500 saturday, PT, then train until 1 or 2 on sunday morning, 0500 sunday reveille, PT, then train sometimes up until dismissal which might be anywhere from 1630-2330 sometimes.  There was often ALOT of dead/down time due to lack of organization at the company level in terms of who was doing what, or waiting for a guest lecturer to turn up from another organization, etc.

What is interesting to note is the attrition level between the two organizations.  I don't have any official numbers, but I'd be willing to say that most Canadian reserve units lose most of their new recruits within 1-2 years.  If somebody can make it past that 2 year marker they're likely going to be in it for a relatively long period of time, lets say 5-7 years, before another gradual round of attrition happens when they transition from being students to having careers and families, and find those activities conflict too much with their reserve schedule.  Within the Marines, because you're held on contract, there is little loss within the 6 years of the average reservists contract, however there's almost an 80-90% release rate after those 6 years.  A big factor is that you don't form the same social bonds, especially because there's no mess organization for people to unwind in after training is a big issue I think, although its such a foreign concept to the Marine Corps (and US military in general) that trying to explain how it builds cohesion and esprit de corps for guys who only see each other once a month doesn't meet much success or acceptance.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Matt,

Good perspectives on both systems. I should make the point here that I do believe that Parade nights have value and I am not saying we need to cut them. Even it the primary value was reinforcing contact between the individual and the unit that is a good thing in and of itself. I enjoyed the mess life and it did help cohesion. The time was also valuable for getting ready for a weekend exercise or passing information/checking kit. I raised the USMC model in response to Dennis Ruhl's point about the US employment of Reserves in Iraq to make the point that you need to go into the details when making comparisons. As an aside I do recall remarking that I found the weekend drills very full - and I was used to the "train all five phases of war in 36 hrs" we sometimes saw at home. The annual training event was, however, an excellent training opportunity and something we could look to.

You are probably very close on your estimate for Reserve retention. When I worked at an Area Training Centre I found it slightly disheartening to see the system jump through hoops to train people but then loose them quickly. We looked for ways to offer a more interesting "second summer" to keep graduates of the first summer interested but the priority was always given to Recruit/QL3 training. I wondered if we could have used an NCM-RESO program that offered four summers of full employment right off the bat - as long as you remained active in your home unit. The first summer would be DP1 training.  The second summer would be DP2 courses to include PLQ-L (bit of a rush but there you go). The third and fourth summers would be spent instructing. Anyhoo!

 

[Dennis Ruhl]

Dennis Ruhl:
If you don't start backing up your claims with facts...i.e. credible links... then you will be introduced to the Warning System for passing false information which is contrary to the forum guidelines. So in a nutshell back up your claims or withdraw your comments....

Milnet.ca Staff

The website mentioning a militia unit with slightly over 100 soldiers and a budget of $ 1 million was, I believe, The Algonquin Regiment.  The website is down at the moment but I'll get the link ASAP. I think it may be an old version of the site so I will have to do a Wayback Machine search. 

The total defence budget in 2008 was over $18 billion and in 2009 over $19 billion.  I don't think that that would be contentious.  I believe the strength of the Canadian forces is now something over 60,000 so my initial ratio of $400,000 per may be closer to  $330,000 per.

There was no intent to deceive and my point that the cost of each individual reserve soldier is comparatively very small doesn't change.  It's a gross analysis and mixes apples and oranges but often gross analyses are the most informative. 

Presuming I can verify my $1 million cost for a 100 member reserve unit I would use as a defence that in real world accounting, a budget or other financial report would be inclusive of all costs that can reasonably be apportioned.  The military may legitimately not be concerned with apportioning all costs on a unit basis because of the cost of preparing data may exceed the gain from having the data available.

There was no intention to feed any rivalry.  I believe a strong regular force helps world security as does a strong reserve.

 

[aesop081]

The total defence budget in 2008 was over $18 billion and in 2009 over $19 billion.  I don't think that that would be contentious.  I believe the strength of the Canadian forces is now something over 60,000 so my initial ratio of $400,000 per may be closer to  $330,000 per.

You can adjust the numbers all you want, your reasoning is flawed and your methodology fundamentaly out to f'ing lunch.

 

[dapaterson]

Thank you for the clarification, but the data remains utterly spurious.  You've taken all DND expenditures, on DND and CF elements, Reg, Res and civ, and atrritubted 100% of it to the Regular Force to arrive at the $330K figure (Public sources place the Reg Force around 64K at the end of FY 2008).

You then take only a small portion of that same amount that is allocated to one unit for a small portion of its expenses to come up with a comparison - without considering what is and is not included, and draw wild conclusions (40:1).

DND's accounts are somewhat opaque, unfortunately.  But a good grounding in them is neccessary to make informed comment.  Using spurious figures or those that are easily refuted only damages your cause.

And, ultimately, the Reserves are overly fixated on dollars and roll calls; to my mind, the focus needs to be on capability output - what can they provide?  When leaders (at all levels up to and including LGens) are given concrete data indicating capability they get very attentive and supportive.