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You seem to be displaying fundamental a lack of understanding of what an alliance is supposed to be. One doesn't join a mutual defense alliance to "deal with things" on one's own...
Europe
- Thread starter Kirkhill
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Yes, I agree the Europe must now act with no expectation of US substantive support.
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Or maybe it won't lead to any.
Russia hasn't resorted to using nuclear weapons to resolve its frustrations in Ukraine. It's easy to spitball cases for countries acquiring nukes and delivery systems. Costs a lot of money, though, to address a threat that doesn't seem to be a material risk for anyone not pushing Russia to the wall by marching on Moscow. I suppose Russia could announce tomorrow that it is going to pave its way to the Oder with nuclear detonations, but if the rest of NATO stays out, it will stop there. Sure.
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As I wrote, they can invoke Article 5 if they think it's needed.
Europe is capable of defending itself against any external or internal threat. NATO was formed to deal with the USSR. European NATO is now much more powerful and Russia is a shadow of the Soviet Union. Attacked NATO members always have the option to call on the alliance. Opinions are going to vary as to whether they should bother for overflights and sabotage. What would be the aim - is the US needed to deal with those problems, or is the US needed to escalate into a war to force Russia to FO?
No amount of talking is going to make Ukraine a NATO member. Russia had to take up military operations against Ukraine twice to wake people up; those who failed to respond adequately in 2014 bear most of the responsibility for the current situation. Europe had over half a decade to prepare to deter/defeat the second onslaught. I've advocated that the Ukraine war should either be ended (which most likely means Ukraine must concede territory) or escalated (by a coalition of countries intervening on Ukraine's behalf) to push Russia out of Ukraine, and maintained that the "third way" of keeping an inconclusive bloodletting going indefinitely is unconscionable. NATO doesn't have to be the tool for escalation. The US doesn't have to be involved.
Russia could some day attack to recover some of its former central Asian holdings. I doubt that Europe will be as prepared to help beleaguered nations there as it is to have the US help Europe.
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The enclosure movement (13th–19th centuries) in Britain privatized common land, driven by landowners seeking higher efficiency, profitability, and, particularly from the 16th century, the increased value of sheep grazing. This shift, moving from subsistence to commercial farming, replaced communal fields with fenced, individual holdings.
Wikipedia +4
Key Drivers for Enclosure:
Common use and productivity/efficency are not compatible.
Productive, competent individuals co-operating is not the same as a communal venture. Especially after three generations.
Wikipedia +4
Key Drivers for Enclosure:
- Increased Productivity: Landowners argued that enclosed fields, which allowed for better techniques like crop rotation and selective breeding, were far more efficient than open-field systems.
- Profit Maximization: The rise of the wool trade made converting arable land to sheep pasture highly profitable, incentivizing the consolidation of land.
- Social and Political Control: Enclosures allowed wealthy landowners to gain exclusive, legal ownership over land previously accessible to villagers, removing the rights of the common people.
- Agricultural Revolution: Large, fenced farms were integral to the adoption of new, more efficient farming practices, such as growing turnips and potatoes, which significantly increased food production.
Lumen Learning +5
- Dispossession and Migration: Many villagers lost their livelihoods, forcing them to move to cities to work in the factories of the Industrial Revolution.
- Rise of Capitalism: It transformed traditional, communal agriculture into a capitalist model of private, managed farming.
- Protests: Enclosures, particularly in the 16th and 17th centuries, resulted in significant social disruption and protests known as "enclosure riots".
Common use and productivity/efficency are not compatible.
Productive, competent individuals co-operating is not the same as a communal venture. Especially after three generations.
and we and the U.S. ended up with a lot of new citizens, which wasn't such a bad thing even if most of them were Scots and Irish
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Or maybe it will lead to some.
Poland and Germany as discussing with France, whether you think they are justified in doing so or not. Others named also discussing with France, the only non-US beholden nuclear power in NATO. Totally up to them. They see Russia differently than you.
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Poland and France have had a long long friendship. I can see this going somewhere.
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
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I noticed that alot of the Poles I've met speak French as well as English.
GK .Dundas
Army.ca Veteran
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At one point everybody who was anybody spoke French. It was the language of diplomacy and war . As well as being the language of most courts .
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More to the point, many countries who are next to aggressive, expansionist nuclear powers can no longer rely on the American nuclear umbrella, never mind conventional forces, for aid if invaded. And those powers are well aware that America is no longer reliable in defending those countries.
Nuclear proliferation is going to get nuts.
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Who all sought their own personal enclosure.
HavokFour
Army.ca Veteran
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Croatia from the top rope.
tvpworld.com
Croatia refuses to transport Russian oil to Hungary
Hungary and Slovakia requested on Sunday that Croatia allow them to secure Russian oil by sea.
tvpworld.com
Halifax Tar
Army.ca Legend
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I have absolutely no problem with that. Unless we outright ban and destroy all nuclear weapons, an impossible task, no county should be limited from owning them.
If Poland decides they need ICBMs so be it. Who am I to judge or deny ?
HavokFour
Army.ca Veteran
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France making moves to expand their umbrella.
www.reuters.com
France to boost nuclear arsenal, involve European allies in deterrence
France will expand its nuclear arsenal and will potentially allow European partners to host its aircraft on nuclear deterrence missions, President Emmanuel Macron said on Monday, signalling a major doctrine change for France and the continent.
www.reuters.com
daftandbarmy
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Europe, just doing some Europing....
Europe must not seek Putin’s approval before sending troops to Ukraine
European leaders will not send troops to monitor a ceasefire in Ukraine without first securing permission from Russian leader Vladimir Putin, Britain’s Telegraph reports. The news represents a significant political victory for Russia and comes following a coordinated Kremlin campaign of intimidation designed to deter any European military deployment to Ukraine.
This informal Russian veto over European troops in Ukraine places a key element of the current peace process in jeopardy. Ever since the so-called Coalition of the Willing began to take shape in early 2025, participating countries led by Britain and France have been developing plans to send a significant number of troops to Ukraine following a ceasefire in order to monitor adherence and serve as a reassurance force. However, Putin has consistently signaled that he will not agree to a European military presence, with Kremlin officials stating that any European soldiers sent to Ukraine would be “legitimate targets.”
These threats appear to have worked. With the Coalition of the Willing reportedly unwilling to act unless Putin gives them the green light, the entire concept of a reassurance force is now in doubt. This means that a viable and independently monitored ceasefire in Ukraine looks to be unattainable. All Putin need do to block the process is withhold his approval indefinitely.
www.atlanticcouncil.org
Europe must not seek Putin’s approval before sending troops to Ukraine
European leaders will not send troops to monitor a ceasefire in Ukraine without first securing permission from Russian leader Vladimir Putin, Britain’s Telegraph reports. The news represents a significant political victory for Russia and comes following a coordinated Kremlin campaign of intimidation designed to deter any European military deployment to Ukraine.
This informal Russian veto over European troops in Ukraine places a key element of the current peace process in jeopardy. Ever since the so-called Coalition of the Willing began to take shape in early 2025, participating countries led by Britain and France have been developing plans to send a significant number of troops to Ukraine following a ceasefire in order to monitor adherence and serve as a reassurance force. However, Putin has consistently signaled that he will not agree to a European military presence, with Kremlin officials stating that any European soldiers sent to Ukraine would be “legitimate targets.”
These threats appear to have worked. With the Coalition of the Willing reportedly unwilling to act unless Putin gives them the green light, the entire concept of a reassurance force is now in doubt. This means that a viable and independently monitored ceasefire in Ukraine looks to be unattainable. All Putin need do to block the process is withhold his approval indefinitely.
Europe must not seek Putin’s approval before sending troops to Ukraine
European leaders representing Coalition of the Willing countries reportedly reject the idea of sending troops to Ukraine without first securing Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval, writes Stephen Blank.
www.atlanticcouncil.org
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Fossil
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Informative... and slightly humorous
Why Europe is finally standing up to Donald Trump | This Is Why
The United States may have launched strikes on Iran this week, but Donald Trump also found time for a war of words.
This time, it was with the prime ministers of the UK and Spain – after they refused to allow America access to their airbases ahead of the attack.
Keir Starmer and Pedro Sanchez have responded with some tough words of their own – so why are they and other European leaders finally standing up to Trump?
Niall is joined by Sky’s defence analyst Michael Clarke.
Why Europe is finally standing up to Donald Trump | This Is Why
The United States may have launched strikes on Iran this week, but Donald Trump also found time for a war of words.
This time, it was with the prime ministers of the UK and Spain – after they refused to allow America access to their airbases ahead of the attack.
Keir Starmer and Pedro Sanchez have responded with some tough words of their own – so why are they and other European leaders finally standing up to Trump?
Niall is joined by Sky’s defence analyst Michael Clarke.
HavokFour
Army.ca Veteran
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It looks like Finland might a future host of French nuclear weapons.
www.reuters.com
Finland to lift full ban on hosting nuclear arms, government says
Finland plans to lift a long-standing ban on having nuclear arms on its territory, the government said on Thursday, aligning with Nordic neighbours in a move that could open the door to deploying atomic bombs on Finnish soil during times of war.
www.reuters.com
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Europe, just doing some Europing....
Europe must not seek Putin’s approval before sending troops to Ukraine
European leaders will not send troops to monitor a ceasefire in Ukraine without first securing permission from Russian leader Vladimir Putin, Britain’s Telegraph reports. The news represents a significant political victory for Russia and comes following a coordinated Kremlin campaign of intimidation designed to deter any European military deployment to Ukraine.
This informal Russian veto over European troops in Ukraine places a key element of the current peace process in jeopardy. Ever since the so-called Coalition of the Willing began to take shape in early 2025, participating countries led by Britain and France have been developing plans to send a significant number of troops to Ukraine following a ceasefire in order to monitor adherence and serve as a reassurance force. However, Putin has consistently signaled that he will not agree to a European military presence, with Kremlin officials stating that any European soldiers sent to Ukraine would be “legitimate targets.”
These threats appear to have worked. With the Coalition of the Willing reportedly unwilling to act unless Putin gives them the green light, the entire concept of a reassurance force is now in doubt. This means that a viable and independently monitored ceasefire in Ukraine looks to be unattainable. All Putin need do to block the process is withhold his approval indefinitely.
Europe must not seek Putin’s approval before sending troops to Ukraine
European leaders representing Coalition of the Willing countries reportedly reject the idea of sending troops to Ukraine without first securing Russian President Vladimir Putin's approval, writes Stephen Blank.
Got to love the power of allies.
If anybody should know the weakness of the veto it would be Poland. They lost their democracy and country over it.
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