First Aid / CPR training and certification

[medaid]

I'll come in as a Red Cross Instructor and offer my biased 0.02.

Red Cross depending on where you go and which authorized provider you are with, you will get varying degrees of training just like SJA. By varying degrees I don't mean that the skills won't be the same, I just mean that the instructors' skill experience and overall patient contact and experience will effect how they teach the courses.

That being said, Red Cross generally have pretty good courses, and with a large number of instructors with health care backgrounds. The Instructor Trainers are all extremely experienced, at least out here in BC, and they don't pass Instructors lightly.

Now from what you're saying and by your description, you want a Wilderness Advanced First Aid training from the Red Cross. This course will teach you all the skills necessary to employ WAFA in the wilderness and remote locations. What are some of the things taught on this? Well you'll have to learn all the same skills as a First Responder on top of other things such as fluid and food intake calculation so that your patients will not have to urinate or defecate that much, thus minimalizing movement to any possible injuries, or illnesses that has reduced the patient to limited activities.

This also includes how to utilize the surroundings and what you have to aide and take care of your patient instead of just thinking with a jump kit, or a first-aid bag. Let me know where you're from EW, if you're out here on the West Coast the company I work for is the ONLY company that teaches Red Cross First Responders in B.C. and the instructors teaching it has close to 40 years experience in the Paramedical field, and the assistant instructors are either instructors in other Red Cross fields or experienced First Responders themselves.

Shoot me a PM and let me know.

 

[medic45]

Do you work for Maple Ridge First Aid?  They teach all the red cross first responder courses.

 

[EW]

Thanks forall that. I'm located outside Ottawa, so there are strong offices for both organizations.  Appreciate the answers, and for some context, as I continue the research.  Thanks again!

 

[medaid]

Do you work for Maple Ridge First Aid?  They teach all the red cross first responder courses.

No I teach for Emergency services Institute. As far as I know we're the only one that teaches FR on a regular basis, and regular meaning every 2 months. I haven't met any FRs or EMRs from that school, so I can't really comment on them .

 

[VRC]

Hi there - sorry that I picked up this thread so late.  SJA & CRC are extremely similar in that, at a Standard FA level, they both meet the needs of the various provincial compensation boards(with the exception of BC).  At an advanced level, they have become similar again, although SJA has more experience in providing that level of care.  They have 24-hour, 40-hour, or 80-hour Medical First Responder course.  The 80-hour can meet Paramedic Assoc. of Canada requirements.  I don't know if CRC's 80-hour course does but they'd be foolish if it didn't.
If you're interested in teaching the public yourself, CRC gives you better options; being an authorized provider with Red Cross is much more flexible than teaching for SJA.

As regards content, the person who commented that SJA seems to be fragmented doesn't seem to know where SJA is coming from.  Since you can't pick your next casualty or your next emergency, SJA tries to give you a wide range of skills.  Where they fail is that since their courses are modular, they need to tell their clients that they have some choice in content. 

Having taught for both agencies, I think that I see the differences in approach &, although I still teach for SJA, acknowledge that the differnce really lies with the instructor, not the organization.

VRC

 

[Hawky225]

I've got my NLS certs and SFA + CPR C. Will those quals count for anything?

 

[medicineman]

Long and short - not really.

MM

 

[kratz]

Reference: CMP Instruction 11/06 - First Aid and CPR Training
  - ADM(HR-Mil) Instruction 02/05 - Automated External Defibrillator Usage
  - DND Special Centre First Aid
  - DCoPS FAI and FAIT threads
  - SJA Intranet

Before starting this topic I did a search. While there are a number of posts on this topic, no thread discusses the area of first aid training, the quality of it and the standards of first aid training. I have provided the references above to link those who know the issues and to help everyone to else to know that the FA program is now voluntary vice professional as it once was.

As this thread is for training and standards, most posts would be from FAI (First Aid Instructors) or FAIT (First Aid Instructor Trainers). Other comments are constructive input on what FAI and FAITs can action within the above refs.

I have a topic in mind start with, but I want to hear how this thread is received.

 

[medaid]

I don't quite understand where you're going with this Kratz.

 

[kratz]

In many topics I have read the moan and groaning of people about first aid and that it does not meet what they want. So I am opening a discussion from FAI and FAITs on the courses they are instructing and in a secondary role, providing an answer to questions that pers may have.

As I mentioned in my first post, I have topics in mind:
- SJA or CRC ? This comes up each fall for review due to TB issues.
- Transfer of skills when posted? Both RCR and SJA are nationally recognized, but what are the experiences after a move?

I know one base wants you to have HCP before becoming a FAI. I know another base that you could pull teeth and not be allowed to be  qualified as an AMFR Instructor. I know Gagetown wants FAI to be AMFR1 qualified before their ICP.

These are the topics that I was hoping to talk about in the thread. With other knowledgeable pers.

 

[Armymedic]

FA and FAI isn't really of interest to medical persons anymore. In fact there hasn't really been any sort of interest amongst the army supporting side of the medical branch for years. The only ones I hear doing anything to do with FAI is Fd Hosp and some of the air force bases.

 

[medaid]

AH!!!! Gotcha!!!!

Okie dokie here I go.

I taught for the CF and I teach for the Red Cross.

I will give you an honest unbiased opinion of how both the SJA courses and hor CRC courses are run.

When I first did my CF FAI I thought it was overly regimented, extremely stiff and relatively boring. The way the courses are structured you don't have much wiggle room either way, to teach things as you see fit as long as you meet all the training standards. The old cheesey SJA films didn't help either. If we were going to teach a MSFA course we should have material ie AV that's Milcentric. I know that the MSFA was a bastardized version of the SJA SFA with added Mil components, and I, honestly ever since taking the CF FAI course have become repulsed by the material offered and the techniques taught.

Now, when I became a CRC FAI I enjoyed the process that much more. The entire course was not at all about testing your first-aid knowledge like the SJA version was, but more about developing and understanding teaching as a whole. I honestly believe that the way we teach some of the things in the CF is seriously flawed. It doesn't leave much room for improve and or allow the insertion of many personal experience.

Anyways, when I teach a CRC course whether it be SFA, EFA, MFA, AED or whatever I can always laugh and joke and insert experiences and stories where as when I teach a CF SFA course it's rigid, I am the instructor and you are the student. You listen I teach. You answer when I ask. I find that to be an extremely poor method of teaching first-aid and the whole concept of the SFA taught by SJA is just... well weird.

I seriously believe that the CF would be way better off going with CRC's teaching. Instead of the AMFR we should switch to the EMR which CRC is the national standard and provider for, well with the exception of BC because we're weird. AMFR can't get you a job on a rig in the majority of the provinces. AMFR isn't recognized out side of the CF and SJA. When you go into a health care setting more people would know what level you are and where you placed on the scheme of things when you're a certification and license that is accredited by the Paramedic Association of Canada. The AMFR is not accredited or recognized by again any official body other then the CF or SJA.

Not to mention the CRC would recognise your SJA training... well grudgingly give you a shot at their Instructor courses, but the reverse would never be. Why is that? I don't know. Maybe because SJA believes that they are the best in the world. They lack accountability, any sort of oversight by a recognized medical body, please don't say SJA can regulate itself because it clearly can't from the people I've worked with. Their own developed standards and training has no place in the real world, and frankly is hard to work with even if they did come to help you.

I had a troop who's an ACP when I was with the Fd Amb and his wife was a teacher. Her co-worker said to her one day "What does your husband do?" She said "My husband's a paramedic with BCAS" and her co-worker says "Oh! Wow, my husband's a paramedic too! But I don't know what BCAS is" and the troop's wife looked at her strangely and said "so... where's your husband working then?" co-worker replied "Oh! He's with St John's Ambulance!"

When we heard this, we had a good laugh... a really good laugh. Then we became serious and though "wow... just... wow"

I've had many horror stories some of my own, and some from others. One thing that really amazed me was that when the Queen visited Ottawa a few years back, the SJA was there to provide med coverage. With one fake ambulance and a few fanny packs.... and I've worked plenty of large events along side SJA and it has been unanimously decreed that SJA will not be doing most if not all the events that I've been a part of.

Anyways... sorry for the long winded blurb. I don't think the CF should be with SJA anymore. If they want real professional level courses, they should go with EMR and PCP like we've started already with the Med Tech QL3. No more fly by night and no accreditation.

 

[kratz]

I am not stuck with CRC or SJA. I really only want to provide what students can use in real life. In Nova Scotia if an AMFR is wearing the provincially issued tag on scene, at least prehospital medical pers know that person has a minimum level  to admin O2, handle spinal issues or work with an AED.

I have access to FAI materials for SJA and CRC. Given a choice , I don't care which one I could instruct to members. In my mind, what I do want to offer is  a FA program meet their needs and that they are willing to use more often than not.

When I was in school I never liked the learning method of "do this becasue it must be done". As a FAIT, I work with the idea of this is how it needs to be done and if you ask, here is the extra info.

 

[medaid]

When I was in school I never liked the learning method of "do this becasue it must be done". As a FAIT, I work with the idea of this is how it needs to be done and if you ask, here is the extra info.

BINGO! I think that's the most important part. People want to know WHY things are done vice DO IT because it's done. The whole cahnge that ILCOR brought about was in many ways brilliant! Away with the old mystical ways of things and in comes the science proven methods.

I only go with CRC right now because it's got all the right check marks with many if all the right agencies, and that the certs are recognized. 

 

[medicineman]

I for one, as a FAIT/AMFRIT/EMRIT, have heard numerous times from people I've taught over the years (and I've mentioned to the powers that be as well) that there are bad optics for people not being active workers in the emergency services field teaching some these courses.  Let's look at SJA - you can do your standard first aid one day, and a few weeks later be loaded on an ICP course.  You may have no real world experience other than doing your course previously, but now are able to teach it based solely on the precept that you've passed the ICP.  I've seen some CF units (that will remain nameless - for now) that have gone so far as to load people that are literally a week old instructors on the FAIT course, despite having normally to be an instructor for at least a year.  BTW, these weren't medics either.  This simply doesn't look good.  So, when people ask legitimite questions in class that the instructor cannot answer other than by "That's done this way because that's what the book tells you" doesn't lend alot of credibilty to you as the instructor, the material, the organization or the most important thing - the student's thought of "WTF am I doing here anyway?".  Let's also not forget silly things like answering outside their scope of knowledge or training - and example that's a personal favorite was an IT who was going around telling people that the ASA we were supposed to administer to people having unstable chest pain was as a pain reliever, not as a platelet de-clumper.

Personally, I'm a little biased due to my long association with SJA and some really bad experiences with the CRC.  However, I used to make some extra money by teaching for a firm that you could only work for if you had real field experience.  The text book we used was thin and dumbed down and how it was presented to the students was up to the instructor (within some guidelines).  I think what we should do is take the best of all the worlds, sit down with the First Aid gurus within the CF as a working group, and devise a series of military first aid courses with our own CF stamp on them, with a building block approach to course make up and presentation, each with increasing responsibilities/scopes and more importantly, work/enviromentally oriented.  Not everybody needs TCCC or AMFR/EMR, but some do depending on where they work or what their civilian equivalency requires and everyone needs to know how to deal with not only combat injuries but the day to day stuff that you run into in the field, in a hangar or on ship.  If you get it so it's easy to remember, job related and dare I say fun/interesting, people will take the training more seriously and get more from it.

Lastly, we have to train instructors that are both knowlegeable AND experienced - and not just experienced in the field they are teaching, but in the field of teaching.  Just because you know it doesn't mean you can get your point across.  I too have seen places (both mil and civvy) that have written people off as instructors simply because they are in the field - they couldn't teach someone to (literally) save their own lives, much less a member of the public, but hey, they're a paramedic or a nurse, so they must be able to do it.  Not everyone is meant to be an educator, so let's limit the pool to those that not only can do but can teach as well.

There's my $1.00 worth with 98% tax applied, for what it may be worth.

Cheers.

MM

 

[medaid]

Personally, I'm a little biased due to my long association with SJA and some really bad experiences with the CRC.

Everyone has biases towards one or the other At least now we'll get to hear both the good and the bad from each side of the coin  ;D

 

[medicineman]

By far the best go I had was working for a different company - the pay was good, I was treated with respect, very little petty politics involved and I had the leeway to teach stuff the way I thought it should be instead of the "Stay within this lesson plan only" way of doing things that SJA and to some extent, CRC use.

MM

 

[kratz]

Everyone has biases towards one or the other At least now we'll get to hear both the good and the bad from each side of the coin  ;D

For FAI and FAITs, we know the most of the pros and cons of CRC and SJA. Though those can be discussed here as well. I was aiming to share the good, bad and ugly of offering courses under the current program.

In Halifax, I could offer free EFA/CPC courses with base support through the MFRC. Now that we have moved to Borden, the work and pulling of teeth in comparison to offer the same course is stunning. Not to mention that nearly half the "students" are from a civilian contractor here.

I offered to instruct with the council in Barrie, provided a letter from Halifax. The local FAIT was introduced to me, and physically shyed away from me when she heard I was a FAIT from the East Coast.

 

[The_Falcon]

By far the best go I had was working for a different company - the pay was good, I was treated with respect, very little petty politics involved and I had the leeway to teach stuff the way I thought it should be instead of the "Stay within this lesson plan only" way of doing things that SJA and to some extent, CRC use.

MM

Well to be fair SJA/CRC are national organizations, hence the "stay within the lesson plan" mentality, as it ensures that there is some consistency in every course, regardless of where it it taught.  But having volunteered with SJA for few years, I took/assisted on a few courses, and some of the instructors I worked with were able to insert thier own experiences, and deviate slightly from the offical lesson plan.

 

[medicineman]

I had to really watch that when I was being recertified in Kingston, as the IT couldn't think outside that box.  That's the case in a number of places unfortunately.

Back on topic, thinking outside the box seems to be what gets alot student satisfaction, be it from change of scenery or actually being able to do something different/applicable.  Also, using a problem based approach seems to be useful as well - teach the general considerations, then give each person a problem with/without tools and let them solve it.  It's fun and more real life and helps with time management, as all can get involved at the same time doing something.  It's how we ran our UNMO courses in Kingston, and worked out well.

MM