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Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

dapaterson

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daftandbarmy said:
I think I've just found an alternate way to Expres myself during this test: ;D

[Better forward this to every military prof at RMC]

Well, the court-martial fine was $5000; going this way would have saved $3200.

[/Better forward this to every military prof at RMC]
 

Jarnhamar

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If this test does away with the the age and gender biased wouldn't it be ideal to do it in PT strip with running shoes?

I'm not too sure what the Airforce or Navy wear clothing wise but I'm guessing there are some differences with boots or what they would each wear on operations?    I'm not trolling the tread it just seems like running shoes would be the easiest and fairest approach.
 

SeaKingTacco

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My operational dress is:

A flying helmet
Flying gloves
Survival vest
Immersion suit (with liner)
Boots, really heavy

For this to be a "fair" test, I should have to wear that?

As Vern said, this is a U of S test, not an Army test.

If the Army feels the need for a supplementary/complimentary test for their special needs, I say that they should fill their boots ( see what I did there?) and go design one that involves operational dress.  That should just about consume all Army staff horsepower for the next 10 years, as this gets argued from Brigade to Brigade and Corps to Corps.
 

Eye In The Sky

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ObedientiaZelum said:
If this test does away with the the age and gender biased wouldn't it be ideal to do it in PT strip with running shoes?

I'm not too sure what the Airforce or Navy wear clothing wise but I'm guessing there are some differences with boots or what they would each wear on operations?    I'm not trolling the tread it just seems like running shoes would be the easiest and fairest approach.

I weighed a pair of the issued Air Force Temperate Combat Boots (aka *clunkers*), they were just over 5 lbs/pair with the steel toe/plate and full leather upper.  Its likely safe to assume the CWWBs are slightly heavier.  [Flight Comment article on the issued RCAF boots].

Thankfully, my orthodics don't allow me to wear them and I have to get LPO boots.  Magnum makes full leather, CSA Gr 1 boots with composite toe/plate and they are less than half the weight.  :nod:  My experience with the issued RCAF boots was the leather heel cup made it hard to just walk around in them and have skin left at the end of the day, let alone do a PT test in them. 

If this is a CF test, with a common standard supposedly applied to each CF member the same way, it seems the best thing to do is adopt a single standard across the board for dress.  Easy enough to do, just insert the word "SHALL" in the appropriate place and enforce it from the top down.  Then sort out those with 'their own ideas'.
 

garb811

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So the Navy is complaining because they don't do low crawls so don't see why an approximation of that is included in the test;

The Army is complaining because in order to fully simulate Operational tasks you should be dressed in Operational dress in order to have an accurate simulation of the Operational tasks being simulated on the test; and

The Airforce is complaining because there is no scope for doing the test while holding a coffee.

Seems like they got it about right.
 

captloadie

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I think that if the Army insists on wearing boots, they should all have to wear the issued ones. No Magnums, no Swats, just what they get at supply, because that's the Operational dress provided. See how long before you get senior staff wanting exceptions made to the "standard".

And by the way, since when do L1's, even the Comd of the CA, get to go it alone. Last time I checked, he has to follow direction just like everyone else.
 

Eye In The Sky

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captloadie said:
I think that if the Army insists on wearing boots, they should all have to wear the issued ones. No Magnums, no Swats, just what they get at supply, because that's the Operational dress provided.

My Magnums are my issued boots.  IAW the Supply regs, I can't get issued the 'standard issue' ones because I have LPO'd Temp Cbt boots and CWWBs.
 

Haggis

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Eye In The Sky said:
My Magnums are my issued boots.  IAW the Supply regs, I can't get issued the 'standard issue' ones because I have LPO'd Temp Cbt boots and CWWBs.

You are an exception.  Therefore, to be fair to those who wear the issued GP boot, you should have less time to complete the 10 m rushes and loaded shuttles.....

:stirpot:
 

fhg1893

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Could someone elaborate a little on the concerns about doing the test in operational dress?  I understand that boots make a difference when it comes to certain tasks.  One would think that footware isn't terribly relevant for the sandbag lift and the loaded shuttles.  Boots would be an advantage for the sandbag drag, and a bit stupid/suicidal for the 20m rushes.  Have I got that right?

Sorry, a bit lost...
 

McG

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ArmyVern said:
Given how many years the Expres lasted in PT strip, I'm inclined to believe that our institution considers PT Strip to be just fine.
The CF has come right out and said that the Express was less than “just fine.”  Rather, the CF Express failed as a reliable predictor of success in the common operational tasks.  It should be the last thing one points to as proof of “just fine.”

ArmyVern said:
... in all the years of bitching about our last UofS minimal test - the CF Expres Test - never once do I recall seeing or hearing anyone bitch about how it did not truly reflect operational tasks due to it being done in PT strip. 
No, nobody would have pointed to PT strip because the test itself was so far removed from reflecting the operational tasks that it was not worth getting to the topic of dress.  However, the relevance of operational dress and equipment comes up quite frequently in discussions of the BFT because that test was at least recognizable to military tasks.  A push-up does not directly correlate to any task regardless of the clothing.  Unlike the new tests, doing Express in operational uniform would not make it any more realistic or accurate an evaluation.

ArmyVern said:
Running shoes would be the one common type of footwear that we currently all have is all I'm saying.
There is as much variance in the types of running shoes out there as there is in boots.

SeaKingTacco said:
My operational dress is:
That list is mixing clothing and equipment.  Helmets, armour, load-carriage, cold/arctic clothing, immersion clothing, etc, etc don’t belong in the common CF fitness test.  However, everyone has an operational uniform with boots.  Everyone must be able to do the operational tasks in that operational uniform with that operational footwear. 

captloadie said:
... since when do L1's, even the Comd of the CA, get to go it alone. Last time I checked, he has to follow direction just like everyone else.
The Army has been going its own direction with respect to fitness testing for the last many years.  It has been called the LFCPFS and the test was also known as the BFT.

Desirably, the CF would go to one common standard.  But it would not be unreasonable of the Army to insist that standard include the bare operational uniform as dress while pers perform task simulations.

 
J

jollyjacktar

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But it would not be unreasonable of the Army to insist that standard include the bare operational uniform as dress while pers perform task simulations.
And it would not be unreasonable for the other two stake holders, the Navy and Air Force, to insist otherwise if they so desired either.
 

dapaterson

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jollyjacktar said:
And it would not be unreasonable for the other two stake holders, the Navy and Air Force, to insist otherwise if they so desired either.

[It Never Really Works Like This in NDHQ]

It would not be unreasonable for the authority in this matter, the Chief of Military Personnel, to issue direction that others must follow.

[/It Never Really Works Like This in NDHQ]
 

Halifax Tar

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Isn't unification a wonderful thing ? 

Trying to say 1 standard PT test is a predictor for all three services is just plain wrong apparently right down to the dress standards while preforming said test. 

Why not let the RCN, CA and RCAF develop a fitness test that they each deem appropriate for their operational needs and run with it ?  For us purple folks we simply conduct what ever test is administered by the command we work for at that moment.  Folks not under the RCN, CA and RCAF will do the test prescribed the unit CO they belong too or as dictated to him/her by higher.  The shock of letting a CDR/LCol make that kind of decision, I know!

Get rid of the exempt button on the PER and the extra PER points and its a simple pass/fail.

Enforce mandatory daily unit PT as a CF standard as well.  No reason a ships company cannot fall in at 0730 and leave the duty watch behind to go do some circuit training or what have you.  Units should rely on BFTA/AFTA, PLQ/JLC and PSP qualified folks to organize and run the training. 

Just my 2 cents flame away as you see fit
 

jwtg

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Halifax Tar said:
 

Why not let the RCN, CA and RCAF develop a fitness test that they each deem appropriate for their operational needs and run with it ?  For us purple folks we simply conduct what ever test is administered by the command we work for at that moment.  Folks not under the RCN, CA and RCAF will do the test prescribed the unit CO they belong too or as dictated to him/her by higher.  The shock of letting a CDR/LCol make that kind of decision, I know!
One thing I keep hearing is that by having this unified, predictive (to whatever degree it is predictive) test, the CF ensures that there is a standard which must be met, and will stand up in court or human rights tribunal.

In your hypothetical situation, what happens if someone fails the CA test and is (eventually) released?  OT to an RCAF trade?  Get posted to a new unit?
 

Halifax Tar

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jwtg said:
One thing I keep hearing is that by having this unified, predictive (to whatever degree it is predictive) test, the CF ensures that there is a standard which must be met, and will stand up in court or human rights tribunal.

In your hypothetical situation, what happens if someone fails the CA test and is (eventually) released?  OT to an RCAF trade?  Get posted to a new unit?

That a good question and this may raise particular questions for us purple folks.  I guess I would have to say you would be subject to that standard.  If you fail a PT test you would go through the prescribed DAOD.

Great point though. 
 

PuckChaser

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There's nothing stopping the RCN and RCAF or even the CA from developing their own tests. FORCE is for UoS. If the Navy thinks they need a special test specific to ship duties, they can spend their budget and do it. The CA has had it for years (Expres in non-field units and BFT in field units). Maybe someone can even get a leading change bubble bump for developing a test specific to their environment.

I really don't see what the big deal with this is. It seems head and shoulders above what an EXPRES test was, and simply gives you a check in the box that you are fit enough to continue service in the CAF.
 

Haggis

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Here's a new tinfoil clad "reasoning" behind the implementation of Project FORCE, shared with the usual disclaimer.

Canadian Forces vet says new fitness test geared to cut staff

By Jessica Hume, Parliamentary Bureau

OTTAWA — Not all members of the Canadian Forces are convinced a new fitness test is just about trimming waistlines.

Some believe the exponentially more rigorous test is a misnomer for a forced reduction plan — and not just because its timing coincides with budget cuts to the department.

With budget cuts to the National Defence at 13% this year and overseas operations winding down, a retired Canadian Forces member also questioned the decision to apply the test equally to all men and women regardless of age, wondering how the military can increase the number of women in the forces while prescribing a test that is measurably more challenging for women and older men.

"This is a much cheaper way to cut down the military while saving money by not offering any money for early release," the former member said. "This is a concerted effort to cut older and female soldiers."

Defence Minister Peter MacKay denied those claims.


Really?  He denied them?  :sarcasm:



 

MARS

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garb811 said:
So the Navy is complaining because they don't do low crawls so don't see why an approximation of that is included in the test;

The Army is complaining because in order to fully simulate Operational tasks you should be dressed in Operational dress in order to have an accurate simulation of the Operational tasks being simulated on the test; and

The Airforce is complaining because there is no scope for doing the test while holding a coffee.

Seems like they got it about right.

:rofl:

Love it
 

Sub_Guy

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The big problem I see with this test is how all of a sudden someone
thought to add more weight to the sandbag pull.  Apparently the gym floor
is too slick, so more weight is added, I don't understand how after all the testing that was done prior
to this coming online that now the lack of friction on the gym floor is an issue.

Where was the original testing done?  Parking lots? If the testing was done in gymnasiums then why all of a
sudden add on weight? 
 
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