Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[Eye In The Sky]

Perhaps. 

I don't buy all the "but the standard wouldn't be enforced" etc.  We enforce the standards for...dress.  Weapons.  Whatever work we do in whatever trade we are in.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc.  Why is this so effin different?  Its a PT test!!  FML.  I could take a platoon of recruits to Castle Range on a rainy day and run a live grenade range but am not "qualified" or "competent" or "insert cop-out word here"to assess the same ones on a PT test.  WTF, over.  Whats the point of having NCOs and Jr Officers if not to do the work they are supposed to do, regardless of the task??

We are our own worst enemy at times.  If the Snr Leadership doesn't have confidence in the lower leadership to do their jobs, there are bigger issues to worry about than new PT standards and tests.  The CF needs to stop making mountains out of molehills, and this whole PT test assessment crap is a molehill IMO.

PSP; I don't have much time for the average PSP staff.  PERIs I did because they were from the BTDT school. 

 

[blacktriangle]

Perhaps. 

I don't buy all the "but the standard wouldn't be enforced" etc.  We enforce the standards for...dress.  Weapons.  Whatever work we do in whatever trade we are in.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc.  Why is this so effin different?  Its a PT test!!  FML.  I could take a platoon of recruits to Castle Range on a rainy day and run a live grenade range but am not "qualified" or "competent" or "insert cop-out word here"to assess the same ones on a PT test.  WTF, over.  Whats the point of having NCOs and Jr Officers if not to do the work they are supposed to do, regardless of the task??

We are our own worst enemy at times.  If the Snr Leadership doesn't have confidence in the lower leadership to do their jobs, there are bigger issues to worry about than new PT standards and tests.  The CF needs to stop making mountains out of molehills, and this whole PT test assessment crap is a molehill IMO.

PSP; I don't have much time for the average PSP staff.  PERIs I did because they were from the BTDT school.

Excellent posts, and great points made. In a time of cut backs, PSP staff need to go. Someone with PLQ should be able to administer the new testing.

I can forsee the fatties and weaklings complaining about their supervisors being impartial to them.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I can forsee the fatties and weaklings complaining about their supervisors being impartial to them.

As with all testing SOPs, the 2nd time around the pers would have a new "assessor".  It works on career courses etc.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We did a practice run through this morning. Unless u are Jabba the frikken hut with a Krispy Kream doughnut stuck in your gob, and maybe even if you are, you should be fine. With the exception of the 51 second up down, sprint, I came in well under the allocated time on everything as did most everyone else.  I just need to do more wind sprints to gain speed to make up for my clumsy touch the line with your toe and flop on the floor like a drunken Irishman technique.

It was so much more efficient than the express test and everyone cheered everyone else on.

I'm well past 50, well over 6 ft tall and well over 240lbs, no problems except the flopping part. On the other end of the spectrum, one of our clerks is 30ish, no more than 110-120 lbs and no taller than 5 ft 0. She did great, even dragging the sandbags.

TM

No offense, but if it's this easy I would say that we're not really preparing our military properly for WW3.

P.S. Krispy Kreemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  ;D

 

[blacktriangle]

As with all testing SOPs, the 2nd time around the pers would have a new "assessor".  It works on career courses etc.

Excellent. Can someone please give me a good argument for why the Navy and AF will be using PSP staff to run the tests, when we are in times of fiscal restraint?

Does anyone have an idea of how much PSP trainers etc cost us? I'd be curious to know.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

No offense, but if it's this easy I would say that we're not really preparing our military properly for WW3.

P.S. Krispy Kreemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  ;D

So what you are saying is that none of us over 50 and not at an ideal BMI should find this not challenging?...No more say than a 25 year old?.... The fitness test was NEVER intended to prepare the CF for WWIII; that's what all that other training 'stuff' is for. The test is done to ensure ALL meet a set MINIMUM physical requirement and I believe since inception, it has done that (for those who actually did it annually). There was no XPress test in the 30s and 40s and yet who won that war?...Oh yeah, our parents and grandparents did!!!
Oh no!!! I am defending 'older' people-I have become one!!!
I don't care what we have for a fitness test. Whats the old saying? "You can please all of the people some of the time or some of the people all the time but you will never please all of the people all of the time."

As for the repeated queries and accusations about the Navy and Airforce opting for PSP staff; In my 30 + years, I have met MANY sailors and almost as many airmen/women and I can almost guarantee, none of us asked for PSP staff-This was a decision made in the Halfway House I mean The Centre and that means we will never know who or what committee decided this. I agree, it should be the same cross the board.

Pat

 

[turretmonster]

Nope, you are going to find it challenging. I did as did most of my peers but its achievable even for old folks who are not going to win any body building contests in the near future. And yes Pat, the next morning your +50 year old knees are going to say hello to you like mine are doing right now. Nothing a Timmies coffee won't sort out.

 

[ARMY_101]

No offense, but if it's this easy I would say that we're not really preparing our military properly for WW3.

The test isn't meant to measure preparedness for WWIII...

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

Perhaps. 

I don't buy all the "but the standard wouldn't be enforced" etc.  We enforce the standards for...dress.  Weapons.  Whatever work we do in whatever trade we are in.  Etc.  Etc.  Etc.  Why is this so effin different?  Its a PT test!!  FML.  I could take a platoon of recruits to Castle Range on a rainy day and run a live grenade range but am not "qualified" or "competent" or "insert cop-out word here"to assess the same ones on a PT test.  WTF, over.  Whats the point of having NCOs and Jr Officers if not to do the work they are supposed to do, regardless of the task??

We are our own worst enemy at times.  If the Snr Leadership doesn't have confidence in the lower leadership to do their jobs, there are bigger issues to worry about than new PT standards and tests.  The CF needs to stop making mountains out of molehills, and this whole PT test assessment crap is a molehill IMO.

PSP; I don't have much time for the average PSP staff.  PERIs I did because they were from the BTDT school.

With regards to this, I don't trust PSP (in general) with my fitness, and I can guarantee you that I trust my CofC even LESS with my fitness.  I've seen what some people in my CofC consider good workouts, and proper form on exercises...so NO I would definitely not want them judging/scoring our tests or deciding my fitness training.

 

[Jarnhamar]

With regards to this, I don't trust PSP (in general) with my fitness, and I can guarantee you that I trust my CofC even LESS with my fitness.  I've seen what some people in my CofC consider good workouts, and proper form on exercises...so NO I would definitely not want them judging/scoring our tests or deciding my fitness training.

Aren't we putting a bit too much complicity on a pass/fail test though?

This isn't about an overweight smoking drinking out of shape PSP/supervisor telling us how to lead a healthy and active life style or "leading" us on PT.

It's about someone in a supervisor position checking off a box whether we pass or fail a simple set of tests.  Drag sandbags back and forth between two lines. Did you make it on time? Pass.
Lift a snadbag up and put it down, take a step to the right, pick a sand bag up and put it down.  repeat. Did you do it in the allotted time and raise it over the line every time? Pass.

I'd be worried if a leader can't supervise a small party task.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's about someone in a supervisor position checking off a box whether we pass or fail a simple set of tests.  Drag sandbags back and forth between two lines. Did you make it on time? Pass.
Lift a snadbag up and put it down, take a step to the right, pick a sand bag up and put it down.  repeat. Did you do it in the allotted time and raise it over the line every time? Pass.

I'd be worried if a leader can't supervise a small party task.

Just a small added bit if I may; the standard is already set, they are just 'monitoring performance'.  Regardless of the supervisor's fitness level, they are still a Superior Officer IAW the QR & O, right?  Why is this any different than the performance of daily duties?  You might think yourself better at "Task A" then your highers, does that mean they can't write your PER??

Okay so a few suggestions then:

1.  Each Wing/Base would put together a Pri and Alt "testing team".  Base/Wing Commanders would task each unit for pers.  Unit CofC would select the best mbr for the job(s) it is tasked with based on rank, qual, toque size, whatever.  The ppl selected would do "Initial Cadre Testing" and would require a PASS to act as an assessor to supplement their leadership quals and experience; or

2.  Each unit puts together a testing team, and can test any other unit "except" their own.  Unit COs to co-ord.

There; reasonable apprehension of bias eliminated.  Leaders are doing their part at all levels.  Seems simple enough to me. 

 

[PMedMoe]

Like most people don't have enough secondary duties.....  :

Let's not forget that PSP doesn't just oversee fitness testing.  PSP personnel also do health promotion, work in our Messes, recreation programs, sports, base newspapers and other activities.

Any of the supervisors you're all proposing to monitor PT tests able to give me a fitness regimen detailed to my body type and ability?  A nutrition program?  And I don't mean CrossFit and a protein diet, either.

Yes, we could monitor our own PT tests.  Get rid of PSP all together?  I don't think so.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Like most people don't have enough secondary duties.....  :

Not a secondary duty, a tasking from the CofC thru a tasking order.  We can do it for something like the Battle of Britain parades each Sept so why not PT testing? 

Let's not forget that PSP doesn't just oversee fitness testing.  PSP personnel also do health promotion, work in our Messes, recreation programs, sports, base newspapers and other activities.

Base Newspaper; something else that should be on the chopping block in this day and age IMO.

Any of the supervisors you're all proposing to monitor PT tests able to give me a fitness regimen detailed to my body type and ability?  A nutrition program?  And I don't mean CrossFit and a protein diet, either.

Nope.  Not their job or function.  I'd be interested to see how many CF members actually go to PSP for those services though (seriously). 

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So what you are saying is that none of us over 50 and not at an ideal BMI should find this not challenging?...No more say than a 25 year old?.... The fitness test was NEVER intended to prepare the CF for WWIII; that's what all that other training 'stuff' is for. The test is done to ensure ALL meet a set MINIMUM physical requirement and I believe since inception, it has done that (for those who actually did it annually). There was no XPress test in the 30s and 40s and yet who won that war?...Oh yeah, our parents and grandparents did!!!
Oh no!!! I am defending 'older' people-I have become one!!!
I don't care what we have for a fitness test. Whats the old saying? "You can please all of the people some of the time or some of the people all the time but you will never please all of the people all of the time."

As for the repeated queries and accusations about the Navy and Airforce opting for PSP staff; In my 30 + years, I have met MANY sailors and almost as many airmen/women and I can almost guarantee, none of us asked for PSP staff-This was a decision made in the Halfway House I mean The Centre and that means we will never know who or what committee decided this. I agree, it should be the same cross the board.

Pat

I believe D&B was speaking from an infanteer's perspective and in that regard I agree with him.  I don't necessarily disagree with this test but combat arms (especially infantry and combat engineers) need their own test IMO.  You cannot compare the type of fitness required of say a mechanic to that of an infanteer.  This again comes back to the problem of painting everyone with the same brush. 

For the same reason an infanteer should not wear the same fighting rig that a logistics soldier wears, an infanteer should be held to a different standard in terms of his physical fitness because his job is more physically exhausting.  We need to stop painting everyone with the same broad brush and acknowledge that some people do different jobs; thus, they may require different levels of fitness.

Not a secondary duty, a tasking from the CofC thru a tasking order.  We can do it for something like the Battle of Britain parades each Sept so why not PT testing? 

We administer our own Para PT tests so I don't see what the big deal is, if you put professional and competent NCO's in charge you will have no problems.



 

 

[Jarnhamar]

What do you think would be a good standard/test for the infantry or combat arms?

 

[Chernoble]

BFTA's (Basic Fitness Training Assitant) and AFTA's (Advanced...)  are able to conduct PT tests currently, they just cannot sign the CF EXPRES sheet.  The training is available in Borden, hell it's even at no cost to the Unit to get on those courses!  The only change they would have to make is to allow a qualifited BFTA or AFTA to sign the sheet saying you passed or failed.

As for the comments about trade specific tests, I can see it in elite fighting Units and high demand trades like SAR and Combat Diver but I don't agree that a standard combat arms soldier requires a different standard.  A combat arms soldier may be required to conduct more physically demanding things on a daily basis but it is by no means extreme from my experience with 10 years in the Patricia's.  I am in way better shape since leaving the Infantry than I was at any point while with it and I had zero problems conducting any of my duties to a high standard while I was.

Don't get me wrong, my job as an AC Op is much jammier physically than combat arms on a daily basis, but you don't need to be fit to be combat arms and do the job.  Look around

 

[Eye In The Sky]

you don't need to be fit to be combat arms and do the job.  Look around

op:

 

[Chernoble]

op:

I know... this may ruffle some feathers but it's only gotten worse since I was there (97-06).  Not to say the Air Force is a shining pillar of fitness either but none of this is a secret, though people don't like to admit it

 

[PMedMoe]

Not a secondary duty, a tasking from the CofC thru a tasking order.  We can do it for something like the Battle of Britain parades each Sept so why not PT testing?

So continuous taskings?  Again, some get enough of that. 

Base Newspaper; something else that should be on the chopping block in this day and age IMO.

Completely agree.  The Maple Leaf should go too.

Nope.  Not their job or function.  I'd be interested to see how many CF members actually go to PSP for those services though (seriously).

But if you're advocating completely getting rid of PSP you will lose those services.  And I have gone to PSP for a fitness program. 

Just my  :2c:

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

BFTA's (Basic Fitness Training Assitant) and AFTA's (Advanced...)  are able to conduct PT tests currently, they just cannot sign the CF EXPRES sheet.  The training is available in Borden, hell it's even at no cost to the Unit to get on those courses!  The only change they would have to make is to allow a qualifited BFTA or AFTA to sign the sheet saying you passed or failed.

As for the comments about trade specific tests, I can see it in elite fighting Units and high demand trades like SAR and Combat Diver but I don't agree that a standard combat arms soldier requires a different standard.  A combat arms soldier may be required to conduct more physically demanding things on a daily basis but it is by no means extreme from my experience with 10 years in the Patricia's.  I am in way better shape since leaving the Infantry than I was at any point while with it and I had zero problems conducting any of my duties to a high standard while I was.

Don't get me wrong, my job as an AC Op is much jammier physically than combat arms on a daily basis, but you don't need to be fit to be combat arms and do the job.  Look around

Point taken and believe me I get what you are saying because you definitely don't need to be a rockstar to get by in the infantry; however, I am looking at this from a deployability perspective as well as getting good value for our good taxpayers money who we are ultimately accountable too.

If we look at  the six-core missions of the Canada First Defence Strategy I would like to highlight the last two:

5. Lead and/or conduct a major international operation for an extended period

6. Deploy forces in response to crises elsewhere in the world for shorter periods

This to me implies that we should have an ability to conduct expeditionary operations.  Having an expeditionary mindset usually requires a mindset of high readiness and that one has elite units capable of going in as the initial entry force.  Now we are a little different in Canada in that we value a general purpose combat capability meaning we don't specialize and we don't have elite units within our regular land forces.  Yes we have CSOR and JTF2 but they cannot generate the necessary combat power to act as that initial entry force.  What this means to me is we damn well better maintain a higher level of physical fitness within our line units so we can generate forces capable of conducting expeditionary operations and rapidly responding to crises.

We can also talk about getting the proper value for money.

Do we have guys that are unfit in the infantry and other combat arms trades?  Definitely.  Is this in any way acceptable?  Absolutely not.  I will probably get called out on this but one of our biggest mistakes IMO was raising salaries and not simultaneously raising the performance standards expected of our soldiers.  We are one of the best paid militaries in the world yet we waste considerable resources because we still act like a General Service Employer. 

If you are making $40,000 to 50,000 a year almost straight out of high school with zero education and your job is to hump that machinegun w/ammo as far and as fast as you can, well you better be damn good at it.  Not only that but we always talk about the military ethos and how soldiering is a profession, well part of being a professional soldier is that you make sure your body is a well-oiled machine ready to go at a moments notice.  We owe it to the people of Canada who pay us to serve them.

What do you think would be a good standard/test for the infantry or combat arms?

I am not sure and I would leave that upto the kinesiologists and sports science folks to determine.  Their is no argument though that what an infanteer does is not more physically demanding then what lets say a clerk does yet they are held to the exact same standard.  This goes against all logic!