Fitness for Operational Requirements of CAF Employment ( FORCE )

[dapaterson]

Remember what the CAF fitness standard is: a tool to assess that every CAF member is able to meet the minimum operational requirements for CAF service.

That's it.  It's not a "ready to deploy" standard.  It's not a "Ninja-JTF 2-uber Commando" standard.

Leadership is about inspiring and encouraging subordinates to excel.  If "leadership" is encouraging people to aim for the bare minimum, then we don't have a fitness problem; we have a leadership problem.


In the meantime, however, I hear a few sandbags asking to be lifted, carried and dragged...

 

[Jarnhamar]

but you don't need to be fit to be combat arms and do the job.  Look around

When you were in Afghanistan with the PPCLIs at the FOB what was the fitness level of the guys in your platoon?

 

[Chernoble]

When you were in Afghanistan with the PPCLIs at the FOB what was the fitness level of the guys in your platoon?

Honestly, all over the map.  I for one was the heaviest I have ever been and still able to do my job quite well, if I do say so myself, but I wasn't in great physical condition.

Some guys were in great shape for sure but others not so much.  I spent less time at FOB's and more outside the wire stuff as we were the "movements company" during my tour. 

It's tough to judge on a tour like that though since there wasn't many ways for people to train (unless they were motivated and creative) at the FOBs in '06.  If you were at KAF, that was another story.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I was with A-Coy for a while in 2006, Op Medusa and building MSG. Ironically we had to handbomb most of the sandbags up the mountain to build the OPs since it was too steep for the MULE. Maybe the FORCE sand bag stuff is more a clever test than it seems at first. 

A coy seemed quite fit to me too. I'll send a PM, we might, you know, know people.

 

[Spooks]

...combat arms (especially infantry and combat engineers) need their own test IMO. 

Yay, another round of Cooper's Tests for everyone!  :-\

I'd be interested to see how many CF members actually go to PSP for those services though (seriously).

Maybe not right up front as I only know of one person (RCAF SupTech) who went on her own volition. I know one guy runs SpinClass for us weekly, as with every other unit on base. I find the PSP most beneficial with recovery though. Post-Physio, they reteach you technique which saves on future injury and coming out of the JPSU, I found out I did Squats/Lunges/Plyos/etc all incorrectly that would have disabled me pretty quickly. PSP fixed that.]

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Thanks for adding that.  Its good to see things like this added, when we are questioning the relevance of a PSP org in todays CF.

 

[Chernoble]

I was with A-Coy for a while in 2006, Op Medusa and building MSG. Ironically we had to handbomb most of the sandbags up the mountain to build the OPs since it was too steep for the MULE. Maybe the FORCE sand bag stuff is more a clever test than it seems at first. 

A coy seemed quite fit to me too. I'll send a PM, we might, you know, know people.

Probably I was C Coy, 7 platoon.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I believe D&B was speaking from an infanteer's perspective and in that regard I agree with him.  I don't necessarily disagree with this test but combat arms (especially infantry and combat engineers) need their own test IMO.  You cannot compare the type of fitness required of say a mechanic to that of an infanteer.  This again comes back to the problem of painting everyone with the same brush. 

For the same reason an infanteer should not wear the same fighting rig that a logistics soldier wears, an infanteer should be held to a different standard in terms of his physical fitness because his job is more physically exhausting.  We need to stop painting everyone with the same broad brush and acknowledge that some people do different jobs; thus, they may require different levels of fitness.

We administer our own Para PT tests so I don't see what the big deal is, if you put professional and competent NCO's in charge you will have no problems.

The highlighted portion is heresy!  We should all be able to be infanteers at moments notice even if you are a 20 year submariner or 20 year airframe tech!

I'd be interested to see how many CF members actually go to PSP for those services though (seriously).

I have to say before being posted to Kingston I would have agreed the point you were trying to make as I found PSP in Halifax almost invisable.  BUT I think PSP in Kingston does a great job and has really changed my mind for the simple reason that they run morning PT classes for those people who wish to partake, this is the perfect strategy for a base that has allot of units and few that do organized unit PT.  I think this is an example of the services they should be concentrating on. 

 

[Chernoble]

I have to say before being posted to Kingston I would have agreed the point you were trying to make as I found PSP in Halifax almost invisable.  BUT I think PSP in Kingston does a great job and has really changed my mind for the simple reason that they run morning PT classes for those people who wish to partake, this is the perfect strategy for a base that has allot of units and few that do organized unit PT.  I think this is an example of the services they should be concentrating on.

Nailed it.  In my experience, PSP in Borden and Trenton are very very good.  Moose Jaw, so-so and Cold Lake, not so good.  Would be nice to have them standardized. 

Even their attitudes towards training is different from base to base.  For example, I went to Trenton the other day and they had a chalk stand and Olympic lifting equipment available, a push prowler and a lot of newer age Strength and Conditioning Equipment.  In Cold Lake, chalk is looked down upon, not provided and anything other than cardio machines and body building equipment is heresy!

 

[buzgo]

The equipment selection often is driven by the personalities of the PSP fitness instructors and the FS&R Manager. If the FS&R manager is old school you're going to see treadmills and nautilus. If they are more modern or open to new ideas then you will get prowlers, rings, lifting platforms and kettlebells.

In Kingston, most of the cool stuff belongs to RMC...

 

[Halifax Tar]

The equipment selection often is driven by the personalities of the PSP fitness instructors and the FS&R Manager. If the FS&R manager is old school you're going to see treadmills and nautilus. If they are more modern or open to new ideas then you will get prowlers, rings, lifting platforms and kettlebells.

In Kingston, most of the cool stuff belongs to RMC...

I haven't noticed much that is off limits to us non hallowed ground types... Just the one cage off the track.  Am I missing something ?

 

[buzgo]

All of the combat fitness corner equipment: the prowler, the platforms, squat racks, the climbing ropes, the kettlebells... it all belongs to RMC PE.

 

[devil39]

I completed this test yesterday morning at Asticou in Gatineau.

I found this test to be kind of fun, relatively interesting, and I do believe that it is a reasonable test of a cross section of basic military job requirements.

However the time allocated to complete these tasks is way, way too lenient. 

I did not do a single specific thing to train for this test.  Well I did flop down on my belly in my office once, two days before the test, in order make sure I still remembered how to start running from the prone position .  I will add that I am a 46 year old staff officer (infantry), arguably in the worst shape of my life at  6'3" and 230 lbs. 

The day before the test I got beat up on the rugby pitch  by a bunch of 18 year old forwards using me as the tackle dummy for a forward continuous recycling attacking "pod" drill.  The night before the test I had beer and suicide wings with the wife while the boys were at martial arts, followed by pizza and two glasses of wine. 

I woke up with lower back muscle spasms thanks to the rugby team I am coaching.  I tested in the morning, and I did not put more that 75% effort into accomplishing the tasks.  I did the sandbag lift in 1min 12 seconds.  Shuttle carry in 2 min 53 seconds.  Fire and movement in 39 seconds.  Casualty evacuation in 19 seconds.  Other than the fire and movement task, they could easily reduce the time allocated by 1/3 and still have a very easy test.

This will never be a test of light Infantry fitness, but then again neither was the 13 km BFT or the 2 by 10, etc. 

 

[ARMY_101]

Did the FORCE test. Nothing amazingly hard and I felt it was a much better indicator of actual tasks CAF personnel could/would be expected to do.  There were two female PSP staff, about 110lbs each, and they demonstrated all of the tasks without issue. That helped morale.

As well, anyone who fails the sprints, loaded walk/unloaded run, or casualty drag is given a second attempt to complete that task without penalty.  (Failing the sandbag lift, however, is an instant fail.) This policy will be permanently in place for the FORCE test, which is a welcome surprise.

Flamboyantly throwing your arms up during the sprints and touching the line then getting down behind it were stressed time and time again.

So in all, don't sweat it, prepare for it, ask questions, and pay attention to the demonstrations to avoid mistakes.

 

[Halifax Tar]

All of the combat fitness corner equipment: the prowler, the platforms, squat racks, the climbing ropes, the kettlebells... it all belongs to RMC PE.

Agreed but I can assure you I have used them at any time and I am not connected with RMC... Are you insuing that only RMC pers can use that kit ?

*I also use their rugby balls they leave around in the bubble and no one seems to mind*

 

[Cadwr]

Did the FORCE test.

anyone who fails the sprints, loaded walk/unloaded run, or casualty drag is given a second attempt to complete that task without penalty. 

Glad to hear you had a good go with your first FORCE test.  I have a question.

I've been working on sorting out how this test will be administered OUTCAN (especially the "ones and twos" type locations.)  In doing so, I've been spending a lot of time working with the management team at DFit.

This is the first I've heard of the bit about second attempts at some portions of the test without penalty - can you confirm that this came from the PSP staff?  I'd like to bring it up (in the proper context of "stories I heard on the internet - no disrespect) next time I see the good Fitness folks.

Thanks!

 

[ARMY_101]

This is the first I've heard of the bit about second attempts at some portions of the test without penalty - can you confirm that this came from the PSP staff?  I'd like to bring it up (in the proper context of "stories I heard on the internet - no disrespect) next time I see the good Fitness folks.

Thanks!

Confirmed, it was from PSP staff.  The second attempt is done on the same day, within 5-10 minutes of failing, if that wasn't clear.

 

[devil39]

Confirmed, it was from PSP staff.  The second attempt is done on the same day, within 5-10 minutes of failing, if that wasn't clear.

Same thing we were told.  Second attempts possible other than the sandbag lift. 

 

[Spooks]

Thanks to physio, I god to do a portion of the test that, personally, I was uneasy about - the 80m up/down run. I went in thinking '50sec...that's insane!'. I didn't run hard, nearly biffed it on the second time back, and did just fine. Had to do 2 sets of that portion of the test and I can say that in 160m, my heart was pumping harder than lvl 8.5 on the shuttle run. I will say kudos to them for shortening the test.

Will the test show that I can get under 7hrs on the Mountain Man race? No. Do some people mock it and say that it doesn't really measure fitness? Yep. It's not designed to see if you will do well on a jump course. It's designed to make sure everyone is at the same standard in the CF (It's hard to reflexivly type CAF). It's the soldier's responsibility to push their standards beyond what is tested. Whether you are fit or unfit normally, the test will feel like an actual test at the end and not a boring waste of time.

 

[buzgo]

Agreed but I can assure you I have used them at any time and I am not connected with RMC... Are you insuing that only RMC pers can use that kit ?

*I also use their rugby balls they leave around in the bubble and no one seems to mind*

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that thanks to RMC's PSP staff, we are all allowed to have access to some pretty nice equipment that we wouldn't otherwise have access to, because the base gym wouldn't spend the money on it.

A few years back RMC was locking it all up but they made a conscious decision to put it all on the floor.