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Future Armour

Would'nt surprise me if he's a close personal friend of M/Sgt Conner or what ever his name . Sparky used to provide me with a lot of entertainment until and couple of incidents a couple of years ago. Since then I tended to view him with a fair bit of derision and some concern.
                              Gordon
 
Tank vs Tank days are few and far between.  Gulf War being the last. Though interestingly enough the Iraqie T-72's did manage to disable up to 60 M1's, but only 3 were totally written off.
With FIBUA being the more pervalent engagements these days, I estimate that the pirority is infrantry support.  AFV's are dead ducks in built up areas, however the infrantry still need the firepower of artillery to "bust some heads hiding in the wood work".  So taking a page from the history books, a type of modified assualt gun could be one answer.  Something well protected (that stand a chance against IED's), that can carry and protect the "grunts", yet still provide the necessary punch both in the offense and defence.
I'd have to go with the Israelis and the Merkava setup.  Protection is paramount, firepower a close second (even with a mortar on board) and MG's for close support.  Maneuverability and speed bring up the rear.  The thing is a moving pill box.
Definitely, a starting point from which to work from! The Israelis decided what's best for them and the benefit out ways the cost. Though sadly, I hardly doubt in the rest ot the world the cost would justify the means.
 
There were some armored fights in OIF I during the march up to Baghdad. Jason Conroy, who commanded a tank company in the 3rd ID, wrote about them in his fine book "Heavy Metal." This should be in every armo(u)red soldier's bustle rack.  ;)

http://books.google.com/books?id=RpuPngViOrEC
 
A bit more like "Past Armour", but there is an interesting point here; perhaps building a submersible "tank" or assault gun would be easier and more cost effective than trying to combine a hydroplane and an AMTRAC like the Marines Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle. We can do much better than the 1950 era technology postulated here:

blog.modernmechanix.com/category/war/page/7/

    Why Don’t We Build… Underwater Tanks

    We need such a weapon for beachhead invasions … we have already solved its technical problems.

    By Frank Tinsley

    EVEN at the outset of our World War II campaign of island conquest in the Pacific, it became evident that some form of armor was needed to spearhead landing operations. The old technique of wooden landing barges and surf-spattered Marines was obviously inadequate. To pit unprotected flesh and blood against an array of underwater obstacles, mines and wire entanglements, backed up by well concealed and heavily bunkered machine-gun nests, mortars and artillery, was a murderous waste of expensively trained men.

    An attempt to answer the problem was found in the Alligator, an amphibious tractor developed by Donald Roebling for rescue work in the Florida hurricane

    belt. It was redesigned hurriedly in light armor plate, armed with forward firing machine guns and given the designation LVT (Landing Vehicle Tracked). It had an armored pilot house forward and a large, open cockpit accommodating 40 fully equipped Marines who promptly nicknamed it their “Invasion Taxi.” Able to . swim, scramble over coral reefs, negotiate soft beaches, swamps and mudholes, and bull their way through jungles, the Alligators were hailed with joy and were instrumental in saving thousands of Leatherneck lives.

    Good as it was, however, the Alligator was not good enough. Its water speed was low, making it an easy target. Then, too, its armor was too light to turn anything larger than machine-gun bullets and the crowded cockpit was an open invitation to shell fragments.

    An improved model, the LVT (A)l (Landing Vehicle Tracked, Armored), was the next step. The idea of an “amphtrack” or armored landing barge designed to carry assault troops to the beach was abandoned in favor of a more heavily armored assault machine carrying only its own crew.

    The Water Buffalo, as it was christened, was decked over like a tank and packed a 37-mm. cannon in a revolving turret. In . addition, two shielded .50-cal. machine guns were mounted on hatches in the after deck. Far more formidable than its predecessor, the Buffalo could mop up shoreline machine-gun and mortar nests before a single soldier hit the beach. In later models, a 75-mm. howitzer was substituted for the 37-mm. gun which made the steel monster still more potent.

    This was the weapon with which we wound up our war in the Pacific. It is still the navy’s specialized instrument for amphibious landings. However, it is not the final answer. Slow in the water, forced to cover considerable distances in plain view of defense batteries, the Water Buffalo is more or less of a sitting duck for enemy gunners. Because it must float, it is of necessity less heavily armed and armored than its land counterpart and consequently less able to withstand defensive bazooka and recoilless-rifle fire.

    A better solution is important to any counter-offensive problem in modern war as was proved in Korea, where a series of landing operations was necessary. Just what kind of a weapon is needed? Obviously, it must be something bold and unconventional, for we have almost exhausted conventional means.

    Fast, armored landing craft have been tried but they still spill unprotected men on a fire-swept beach. They have their place, certainly, but only in followup waves of attack. Larger and more rugged descendants of the Buffalo would be better able to withstand enemy fire while afloat but would prove too unwieldy for subsequent land operations. Land tanks might be floated ashore on detachable, self-propelled pontoons. Like other surface craft, however, they are subject to heavy defense fire during the process. And if one of the pontoons were hit and opened, its tank would head for the bottom like a huge, steel sinker.

    “Well, then,” you ask, “wot-in-ell can we do? Put tracks on submarines and roll them up the beach?”

    You may be closer to the answer than you think. If an adequately armored tank is too heavy to float, why not let it sink to the bottom and roll up to the beach under water? It needs only suitable sealing, a temporary air supply and a means of guiding it along passable, ocean-bed trails.

    Let’s take a look at the technical problems involved.

    The Alligator and Water Buffalo, plus several pre-war amphibious tank designs, have proved that watertight, armored hulls can be successfully combined with practical track gear. So far as underwater sealing, air supply and sea-floor operation are concerned, a working prototype already exists. See the undersea explorer’s submarine in the June ‘50 issue of MI. It is true that this machine is designed like a baby submarine with track gear. It has none of the armament, free-swinging turrets, etc., that a fighting tank requires. But those are problems that can be licked, too—if we really set our minds to it.

    The hull, with its escape hatches, air inlet and exhaust ports, presents no great difficulties. All have been long since solved in standard submarine practice. The main problem lies in the turret. Here we are faced with an entirely separate unit, mounting a heavy, long-barreled gun. It must be capable of 360° rotation and its gun must have a 90° elevation. Mounted on a motor-driven, ball-bearing traversing ring, it is difficult to render waterproof, especially since the gun and turret must be free to swing into action as soon as the tank emerges from the water. And whatever freeing is necessary should be done from inside the tank.

    If we can’t waterproof the turret itself, why not cover the whole thing with something that can be waterproofed! Let’s take our cue from aircraft design. The modern jet fighter faces a similar problem in a different medium. The pilot’s cockpit is like a fish bowl in reverse. Surrounded by the thin, icy air of extreme altitudes, it must be kept filled with heavy, breathable air, warmed to the proper temperature and enriched with oxygen. This means that the cockpit enclosure must be airtight, strong enough to resist wide differentials in pressure and transparent enough for good visibility. Also it must be attached so it can be jettisoned instantly to permit escape in an emergency.

    Here may be our answer. Anchored in a rim molded into the tank’s hull just outside the turret joint can be mounted a heavy dome of clear plastic enclosing the movable components in a rigid, waterproof shell. Inside this bubble-like canopy, the tank’s retractable periscope will revolve, giving its crew a full 360° field of underwater vision. Upon reaching the surface, the dome is blown clear of the tank by small explosive charges placed around the rim as in the standard fighter-plane enclosures. A suitable type of clear plastic, methods of fabrication, optical curves, rim fastenings, gaskets and jettison equipment are all available and easily adaptable to tank requirements.

    The sole remaining stumbling block is the long barreled, 90-mm. gun. Luckily for us, the rapid acceptance of the recoilless type of cannon solves this problem. Light in weight and comparatively short barrelled, this new piece of ordnance is made to order for tank use. With no recoil travel to consider, it can be fitted entirely inside the wide, dome-like turret, with just an inch or two of muzzle protruding. Using rocket-boosted shells with shaped-charge noses, its muzzle velocity and penetration is easily the equal of conventional anti-tank artillery.

    With a 105-mm. recoilless gun mounted in one side of the turret, a powerful flame projector balancing it on the other side and a battery of machine guns buried in an independently rotating top section above, our tank is more heavily armed than any existing model. And all these stingers can be housed compactly beneath the waterproof dome. In the drawing on pages 74 and 75, the tank is shown with side fenders which can be raised during land travel to act as seats for soldiers or for carrying equipment.

    Our tanks would arrive off an enemy coast in standard, sea-going LSTs. As in wartime landing operations, the top deck would be packed solid with jeeps, half-tracks and trucks loaded with fuel, ammo and supplies to implement follow-up tank assaults.

    Like Europe of an earlier era, we are involved in a life-and-death struggle against the craftily led hordes of Asia. We cannot hope to match them in sheer man power. Our only chance to beat them is with superior weapons and know-how. A combination of western science, Yankee ingenuity and the willingness to try anything, is our only hope. An undersea tank may prove to be one of the weapons we need. Why don’t we have it?

 
 
The sole remaining stumbling block is the long barreled, 90-mm. gun. Luckily for us, the rapid acceptance of the recoilless type of cannon solves this problem. Light in weight and comparatively short barrelled, this new piece of ordnance is made to order for tank use. With no recoil travel to consider, it can be fitted entirely inside the wide, dome-like turret, with just an inch or two of muzzle protruding. Using rocket-boosted shells with shaped-charge noses, its muzzle velocity and penetration is easily the equal of conventional anti-tank artillery.

Hmmm.... installing a recoilless rifle / canon inside a turret?
Don't think this fella has ever seen what it takes to take the recoil out & make it recoilless...
Imagine the vehicle will not need a magazine - and will only fire a single round before being disposed of -
The crew will find it toasty / mighty hot once the gunner fires.
 
geo said:
 
Hmmm.... installing a recoilless rifle / canon inside a turret?
Don't think this fella has ever seen what it takes to take the recoil out & make it recoilless...

- Yup.

- Now and then 'ideas' people hit on a gem, but if he thinks mounting a flame thrower will help get a contract built anywhere in the Civilized world, he is sadly mistaken.  Imagine the headlines 'Congress Approves Terror Weapon!'.  Right.
 
Remember this was written in the 1950's, so there is an element of "gee whiz" as well as attitudes most sane people would cringe at today:

Like Europe of an earlier era, we are involved in a life-and-death struggle against the craftily led hordes of Asia. We cannot hope to match them in sheer man power. Our only chance to beat them is with superior weapons and know-how. A combination of western science, Yankee ingenuity and the willingness to try anything, is our only hope.

On the other hand, the basic idea of a submersible amphibious vehicle is technically possible, and would have certain advantages in terms of stealth/surprise. Today there are probably means to have a turret mounted weapon, or failing that an external weapons pod for 3600 coverage. If that is too much of a challenge, an assault gun sort of mount could substitute. It also occurs to me the author may haev been thinking of more exotic forms of recoiless weapons like the Püppchen or the high low pressure gun. Some sort of AIP could be installed, a very simple expedient AIP would be to install a compressed air or oxygen cylinder on the back deck for the swim with a quick disconnect coupling to drop it off once you are ashore.

In terms of "why", it is probably no more challenging than the "transformers" style MEFV, (the LVTP-7 often "dives" after deploying from a ship, so designers have to refine elements of hull and powerplant design to remain submerged and swim towards the beach) and has the advantage of not needing a separate landing craft to get to shore. Of course, there is always the issue of costs vs perceived benefits.

modified to add links
 
Wasn't something similar tried during D-Day with the Shermans?

Oh, wait.  That wasn't intentional.
 
Besides, the fact remains that we can already seal our turret rings reasonably well from the inside for deep fording.  No need to put a fishbowl on top of the slat armour on top of the up-armour on top of the turret...
 
I always thought more of the Lebed style fast hovercraft for insertion.  The Russian idea of fast insertion of mechanized forces, supporting an airborne assault seemed like the way to go.  Get the APC's, IFV's and tanks to the beach as fast as possible, and get the troops OFF the beach as fast as possible.

The idea of loading assault hovercraft at sea and then running them ashore makes more sense than parking an assault ship just off shore, dropping tanks into the ocean, hoping they land track down and not in a chasm or muck bed, and then can navigate all the way to shore without throwing a track (do YOU want to try to get out and fix it, or call for a recovery vehicle?).

 
I had actually posted that as an interest piece (i.e. what people in the 1950's thought "future armour" would look like and be able to do), since people's conception of the future is coloured by the present. Reading back on this thread I see speculation about operating in complex environments, a reflection of our present day concerns about 4GW. Perhaps in 2020, the "need" will be for fast, heavily armoured vehicles able to operate in Western Siberia so we don't get trashed in the "resource wars".

On another site I read some discussion on how war in space might be fought. One person suggested our speculating on space war was a bit like Victorians speculating on air war in the late 1800's. They might postulate ironclads suspended under a vast number of helicopter rotors, majestically forming lines of battle and attempting to cross the enemy "T" to unleash a broadside..........
 
Well, I can tell you one thing,
If they decide to run submersible tanks underground along some sort of route......don't expect me to go out there and build you a bridge waaay down below the sea.....
 
geo said:
Well, I can tell you one thing,
If they decide to run submersible tanks underground along some sort of route......don't expect me to go out there and build you a bridge waaay down below the sea.....

Sort of like the Dnieper '67 exercise filmed for "I Serve the Soviet Union". Anyone can cross a water barrier with 3-6 months preparation......

Assuming anyone feels it is actually worthwhile to make a submersible tank or AFV, I suspect it would "swim" below the surface rather than crawl along the sea bed. Remember the LVTP-7 often "dives" off the back of the assault craft, then bobs to the surface to swim ashore. Given a ballast tank, AIP, navigation system and a crew with nerves of steel the "bobs to the surface" part could be dispensed with.
 
Instead of submersible or amphibious AFVs, why not VTOL air delivered AFV?
 
MCG said:
Instead of submersible or amphibious AFVs, why not VTOL air delivered AFV?

Yeah... Hence the dreaded & fictitions "Hover-Tank" of Hollywood fame ;)
 
geo said:
Yeah... Hence the dreaded & fictitions "Hover-Tank" of Hollywood fame ;)

The Future of Armored Warfare, Ralph Peters

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usawc/Parameters/97autumn/peters.htm

"Flying tanks" have long been objects of speculation, but it is likely that fuel-logic and the psycho-physical dynamics of battle will demand grounded systems for many years to come. While attack helicopters already incorporate many of the characteristics previously imagined for flying tanks, we have found them a complement to, not yet a substitute for, armored vehicles. If we do work toward flying tanks--in the interests of systems economy--the more successful approach would probably be to ask how helicopters could change so that they can move, shoot, and survive on the ground. Aircraft are conceptually more mutable than ground systems, and, if the flying tank proponents are right, this might become the back-door means to change the parameters of armored warfare. A very real danger, however, is asking any system to do too many things, resulting in a system that does nothing especially well. Striking a proper balance between specificity of purpose and flexibility of application is a fundamental systems-design problem.
 
Hmm...
Thinking about this a little, I would contend that the A10 Thunderbolt/Warthog "IS" a flying tank... or assault gun / tank destroyer...
 
Two different authors takes on the future of flying tanks.  Ralph Peters assumes that the advancement of weapons will make mobility and ECM not armour the only defence, ergo his helicopters assumed the role of tanks.  Given a gun of power sufficient to kill any usable ammount of armour, yet light enough to carry it is possible.

David Drake follows a different line of thought, speculating that if nuclear fusion becomes workable, the power to weight ratio would permit hovertanks.  Keeping the traditional tank virtues of armour, mobility, firepower the tank simply becomes better at all of them.  Given range unlimited energy weapons, central fire control, sateleite and regimental data sharing, the possibility of "sweeping the air" of all aircraft becomes possible.

Depending on the vision of the trend of technology that becomes the most important, it is possible that either tanks will be replaced by helicopters with main gun, or helicopters and jets will be replaced by fast hovertanks that command ground and sky.

I think that tanks and helicopters will survive for the forseeable future, but I do think that central fire control, remote sensor platforms, and increasingly smart missiles, the superiority of airpower over ground armour may not last long.
 
The ability to move in three dimensions will provide so many advantages that it will be actively persued. (In a way, a hover tank would represent a helicopter stuck in NOE flight).

Terrain can be used or ignored at the commander's discretion, speeds go up by an order of magnitude and the problems of defence also increase by an order of magnitude. Vehicles that have air mobility have the potential to have much wider fields of view for their sensors, and can deploy a larger mix of weapons. Aircraft have much more available power than ground vehicles to power weapons and sensors. Vehicles with built in air mobility have greatly increased tactical and operational mobility, and there is a potential to add strategic mobility to the mix as well (units self deploying from the homeland and using air to air refuelling to arrive in theatre).

The technical solution in the here and now is some form of ducted fan system.

If compact fusion powerplants or beaming energy to deployed vehicles becomes feasible, you would see heavily armed and protected vehicles taking to the air as the response. I don't think we will be around when that happens, though.

 
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