Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

[MedCorps]

Their is far better technology on the market then what we are presently using; however, will we acquire it?  I believe the crew that just went down on JOAX jumped the new T11 chutes the Americans use.  Will we acquire these chutes?  Uncertain, atleast until the canopy life of our present chutes is past and even then we may end up making some decisions that maybe we simply won't replace the capability, who knows?

I think the plan still is to acquire a new parachute for the Army. 

There is a long term solution project, which takes off where the interim solution project (a minor capital project) left off.  The plan was to build on the information acquired during the interim solution project in order to cut the time to final delivery of the new final parachute. 

I think that the Synopsis Sheet (Identification) and Synopsis Sheet (Preliminary Project Assessment) are in the process of being completed and they will soon be moving forward on the statement of requirements and statement of work before the end of the year. The goal is to have the new parachute in place by 2016.  Budget and extra year because the procurement system is a gong show.  At least someone (DLR) was smart enough to have an interim solution project knowing that the larger capital project would take time to sort itself out with PWGSC. 

MC

 

[KevinB]

Actually, we don't need larger parachutes; we need lo-po or no-po canopies that will slow the rate of descent. Some modern S-L parachutes also offer steerability without forward momentum, so a jumper can choose how he will land and reduce injuries related to those rear-left landings !!

Interesting -- that I did not know.
  Most of the jumps I have been at recently have been SOCOM related - and the forward speed on some of the chutes a few of those units use is rather breathtaking.

I know that jumping a CT-2 require 15 jumps on CT-1's due to the perceived added complexity to it (I only have 1 CT-2 jump and I thought it was a shit ton easier, but that's me).



 

 

[a_majoor]

The more you parachute and the fitter you are, the fewer injuries you get. No suprises there. Only four jumps per year is just asking for injuries.

If you have some idiot who won't stop drop if the winds get above 'Lucky 13knts', or if you are dispatched from too low an altitude, you can be in trouble too. (find a happy place find a happy place find a happy place)

Slight historical tangent: When the French were desperate for replacement specialists to jump into Dien Bien Phu, the French Parachutists insisted they undergo two weeks of training. Higher command overruled this and everyone got the basic "this is how you put on a 'chute; this is how you depart from the airplane..." lecture and was sent into battle (due to the nature of the battle, there was no time for prolonged training).

The specialists (signallers, mechanics, medics etc.) who made these emergency jumps to reinforce the garrison apparently suffered no more jump injuries percentage wise than experienced "Paras" jumping in at the same time.

Source: "Hell in a very small place" Bernard B Fall.

While this isn't an endorsement for less training, it should also suggest that the real key may lie in how "jumpers" are trained.

 

[Danjanou]

:ditto:

If you want guys on the ground faster just drop them at a lower altitude, of course, this may mean you are unable to deploy your reserve parachute if something goes wrong. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of4E-2fSeWs

Video above is of Brit Paras jumping under 500ft

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWi_rMy2Lcg

Brit Paras again jumping with a Low Level Parachute, this time at 250ft

About 4 minutes into this video they note the RLI dropping at 500' as normal SOPs and one incident of a Commando being dropped at 200' in error with some casualties ( none fatal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46XGmUh0TFw

 

[Jungle]

I think the plan still is to acquire a new parachute for the Army.

There it is:

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/harper-government-invests-in-canadian-armed-forces-1774084.htm

This contract award provides for the acquisition of 600 T-11 parachutes and required spare components and is worth an estimated $3.6 million, over one year, until March 31, 2014.

"Though the missions and potential threats of the future are uncertain, the Canadian Armed Forces must be prepared to use its unique capabilities if and when a crisis demands it," said the Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence. "This acquisition will enable members of the Canadian Armed Forces to deploy safely into ground environments as they provide support to future national or international missions.

The T-11 parachutes will replace the CT-1 parachutes currently used by the Canadian Armed Forces. The T-11 Parachute System is authorized and certified for use on the C-17 (Globemaster), C130J (Hercules) and CH-147 (Chinook) aircraft-the primary air mobility transport assets currently in use by the Canadian Armed Forces.

 

[PuckChaser]

Here's a link to the company site with specs for the T-11 (for those unfamiliar like I am): http://www.airborne-sys.com/files/pdf/t11_08052010.pdf

Glad to see something that's its made in Canada.

 

[daftandbarmy]

About 4 minutes into this video they note the RLI dropping at 500' as normal SOPs and one incident of a Commando being dropped at 200' in error with some casualties ( none fatal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46XGmUh0TFw

My all time record (which I don't recommend that you try and beat) was exiting at 450ft AGL - just below the cloud base of course - in a PX4 chute into a Scottish gale onto a DZ that included high stone fences, trees, rivers swollen by heay rain and about 100 terrified cattle with enourmous texas style long horns on them. We had one guy with a back injury and one broken leg but otherwise we did OK. Of course, the farmer hit us with a claim that included still born calves  :

The only reason I think that we didn't have more casualties was because we had prepared for the exercise well, including lots of fitness training and parachuting. Also, we couldn't get close to the Div Commander who insisted on that particular DZ ....

Eidted to add - my point in the above war story:  A canopy that allows you to deploy from 250ft safely is an excellent idea and will only broaden the scope for the effective employability of airborne forces

 

[Danjanou]

My all time record (which I don't recommend that you try and beat) was exiting at 450ft AGL - just below the cloud base of course - in a PX4 chute into a Scottish gale onto a DZ that included high stone fences, trees, rivers swollen by heay rain and about 100 terrified cattle with enourmous texas style long horns on them. We had one guy with a back injury and one broken leg but otherwise we did OK. Of course, the farmer hit us with a claim that included still born calves  :

The only reason I think that we didn't have more casualties was because we had prepared for the exercise well, including lots of fitness training and parachuting. Also, we couldn't get close to the Div Commander who insisted on that particular DZ ....

I remember reading  or hearing 2e REP often jumped from 400' on a regular basis. Mind the prerequsites to joining 2e  REP...........

 

[daftandbarmy]

I remember reading  or hearing 2e REP often jumped from 400' on a regular basis. Mind the prerequsites to joining 2e  REP...........

That is really asking for trouble, especially with the old chutes. Like the British, of course, they probably get around it by reducing the deployment count to 'three' i.e. one thousand two thousand three thousand check canopy.  ;D

 

[Danjanou]

That is really asking for trouble, especially with the old chutes. Like the British, of course, they probably get around it by reducing the deployment count to 'three' i.e. one thousand two thousand three thousand check canopy.  ;D

Can they count that high? I always pictured them as 600 odd Zebra Mussel clones in natty green berets. ;D

 

[Jungle]

Can they count that high? I always pictured them as 600 odd Zebra Mussel clones in natty green berets. ;D

Actually, 2e REP is closer to 1200 troops; but I agree with the rest of your post... 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Can they count that high? I always pictured them as 600 odd Zebra Mussel clones in natty green berets. ;D

I was going to say that we could only count to 10 because we only had that many fingers, but then I remembered the Mortars, MG and AT Platoons...

 

[KevinB]

Trick to jumping at low altitudes is just have the plane fly faster -- ugly opening shock - but you get the deployment count down pretty small...

Unlike the Balloon or Helo on the 5,6,7 shit - oh yeah its opening around nnnnnoooowwww.

 

[Good2Golf]

...Unlike the Balloon or Helo on the 5,6,7 shit - oh yeah its opening around nnnnnoooowwww.

Like going off a 47's ramp flying at 70 kts...  :nod:

 

[KevinB]

Never jumped out of a hook  :'(
  My first few Huey jumps were effectively night jumps, as my eyes were locked shut.  Unlike Freefall where I actually don't feel like I am falling - those first Huey static jumps gave me the idea I was plummeting to my death.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

I remember reading  or hearing 2e REP often jumped from 400' on a regular basis. Mind the prerequsites to joining 2e  REP...........

Last year I read "Fighting For the French Foreign Legion: Memoirs of a Scottish Legionnaire"  by Alex Lochrie. Lochrie was a member of the 2eme REP and mentions while taking the French Commando course they did a drop out of a C-160 Transall at 300 m.

I would take it that being on a commando course jumping from 300 m would be exceptional and not necessary the norm. I remember the author mentioning that during parachute training they jumped from a lot higher, but can't remember anything about them jumping from 400 m on a regular basis.

 

[Danjanou]

Last year I read "Fighting For the French Foreign Legion: Memoirs of a Scottish Legionnaire"  by Alex Lochrie. Lochrie was a member of the 2eme REP and mentions while taking the French Commando course they did a drop out of a C-160 Transall at 300 m.

I would take it that being on a commando course jumping from 300 m would be exceptional and not necessary the norm. I remember the author mentioning that during parachute training they jumped from a lot higher, but can't remember anything about them jumping from 400 m on a regular basis.

As I said I can't remember the source so cannnot vouch for the authenticity. just one of those favcts that gets stuck in one's memory. I guess I could drag my ass out of this chair and check the several bookcases across the room to see if I can remember where i came across it.  BTW aside from that would yu recommend the book?

 

[Journeyman]

Unlike Freefall where I actually don't feel like I am falling ....

You're not falling; it's just really, really windy

.....as the earth moves in and becomes more focused beneath you.  :nod:

 

[daftandbarmy]

Never jumped out of a hook  :'(
  My first few Huey jumps were effectively night jumps, as my eyes were locked shut.  Unlike Freefall where I actually don't feel like I am falling - those first Huey static jumps gave me the idea I was plummeting to my death.

Add some silence, and the sound of the wind blowing through the struts of the balloon cage at 800ft AGL, and you'll find out that adeniline is brown...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCnnEOHNtwM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK7K4ma_qF8

For all its horrors and complexities, the balloon was a good way to keep troops in date without having to go through the expense and hassle of finding a suitable airfield etc.

 

[Jungle]

Add some silence, and the sound of the wind blowing through the struts of the balloon cage at 800ft AGL, and you'll find out that adeniline is brown...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCnnEOHNtwM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK7K4ma_qF8

For all its horrors and complexities, the balloon was a good way to keep troops in date without having to go through the expense and hassle of finding a suitable airfield etc.

I did some balloon jumps in Aldershot in the same period as the videos, again with 1 Para. I was already an experienced Trooper, jumpmaster qualified, and found the balloon jumps impressive.

Thanks for the vids, brings back memories...