Germany & France to jointly develop Main Ground Combat System (MGCS) - AKA "Leopard 3"

[CougarKing]

An article from last May:

DW

Germany, France to jointly develop 'Leopard 3' tank

Germany and France are considering cooperation on developing a successor to the tank "Leopard 2." The current model has been in service since 1979, and aging Bundeswehr equipment is currently in stark focus.

The German Defense Ministry announced its plans for the "Leo 3" (as it's likely to be nicknamed in Germany) in a report on Friday to the Bundestag, which was obtained by multiple media outlets.

"Technologies and concepts will be investigated between 2015 and 2018 in joint studies also involving German industry," Markus Grübel, a deputy minister in the German Defense Ministry told his parliamentary colleagues. He cited the Leopard 2's long years of service as the reason that a new battle tank was required.

The Leopard 2's 50-year service life is set to expire in 2030. The tank, which came into service in 1979, was conceived as part of a plan for Cold War-era land defense. Germany commissioned more than 2,000 of them at the peak of the arms race of the early 1980s. Currently, however, only about 240 are in active service; but last month, citing the security situation in Ukraine, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen annnounced plans to reactivate 100 mothballed Leopard 2 tanks. In November of last year, von der Leyen also announced a move to add more than 100 aditional "Boxer" armored personnel carriers to the Bundeswehr's ranks.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[cavalryman]

The Leoclerc?  ;D

 

[George Wallace]

They backed out of the MTB 70.  What is to say they don't back out this time as well.

 

[vonGarvin]

They backed out of the MTB 70.  What is to say they don't back out this time as well.

That ended up spawning the M1 and the Leo 2, no?  And when you think about the development period, etc, the Leo 2 (and M1) are actually products of early 1970s thinking, although both have been significantly improved upon.

 

[Eland2]

The Leoclerc?  ;D

The French-issue version will have two forward speeds, and 16 reverse.  :nana:

 

[NavyShooter]

Not a bad idea....it gives France a 'valid' means to suck German Euros out into it's economy....

 

[George Wallace]

That ended up spawning the M1 and the Leo 2, no?  And when you think about the development period, etc, the Leo 2 (and M1) are actually products of early 1970s thinking, although both have been significantly improved upon.

Actually, I believe it was the Leo 1.  Originally, the Brits were looking into it as well, but pulled out leaving it a French/German program until the French pulled out as well.  AMX 30 was their product, and the Leo 1 was the German, with the British L7 gun.

 

[vonGarvin]

Actually, I believe it was the Leo 1.  Originally, the Brits were looking into it as well, but pulled out leaving it a French/German program until the French pulled out as well.  AMX 30 was their product, and the Leo 1 was the German, with the British L7 gun.

The Leo 1 is a product of the 1950s, put into service in the 1960s.

 

[a_majoor]

From a "practical" and "fiscal" viewpoint, it might be a lot faster and easier for the Germans to create a 120mm robotic turret for the PUMA and put that into service. The concept provides for common logistics and training for a rage part of the fleet, economies of scale and tactically speaking, a fleet of vehicles with a very similar mobility profile. As well, the German army can continue the process using PUMA hulls for engineer vehicles, GBAD platforms and other jobs as well, providing a large and robust mechanized force at a fairly reasonable cost (much of the R&D is already amortized).

As an added bonus, the Germans will have a much more powerful fleet of vehicles for the foreign arms market than the current CV90 series that is dominant right now, and military exports are certainly an area where Germany has long been a big player.

 

[George Wallace]

The Leo 1 is a product of the 1950s, put into service in the 1960s.

Yes, and I believe that is when the idea of the MTB 70 was originally started......Looking at Wikipedia, I am quite wrong and you are more correct:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBT-70

The MBT-70 (German: KPz 70) was a 1960s German-U.S. joint project to develop a new main battle tank, which was to be equipped with a number of advanced features. It utilized a newly developed hydropneumatic "kneeling" suspension and housed the entire crew in the large turret. The MBT-70 was armed with a 152mm XM150 gun/launcher, which could use conventional ammunition and the Shillelagh missile for long range combat.[2]

By 1969 the project was well over budget and Germany withdrew from the effort, developing a new main battle tank on their own instead (the Leopard 2). In the US the development continued for a short time, until in 1971 when Congress cancelled the program. The MBT-70 is the "grandfather" of the Leopard 2 and the M1 Abrams, the current main battle tanks of both countries.

No mention at all about the Brits or French anywhere on those pages.  Did see one of the prototypes up in Munster.  Impressive. 

 

[Underway]

Seems an odd combo.  Mainly because the French crew commander is also the gunner in French tanks IIRC.  I thought that French tank crew management is entirely different than the Germans.

 

[Infanteer]

No, the Leclerc has an autoloader.  So only the Commander and Gunner are in the turret.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Leoclerc?  ;D

tried to give you milpoints for the chuckle , not working

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think the Germans have had enough of the lightly armoured tank, combining the lessons learned with the LeoA6M and the Leclarc and M1 would likely lead to some interesting discussions, the UK will of course demand a BV for the tank.

 

[my72jeep]

I think the Germans have had enough of the lightly armoured tank, combining the lessons learned with the LeoA6M and the Leclarc and M1 would likely lead to some interesting discussions, the UK will of course demand a BV for the tank.

BV?

 

[jollyjacktar]

The Leoclerc?  ;D

or Leo deCapitulate?

 

[Grimey]

BV = Boiling Vessel.  The ability to boil water for tea takes precedence.

 

[Underway]

No, the Leclerc has an autoloader.  So only the Commander and Gunner are in the turret.

Ack, thanks.

As far as doctrine is concerned it seems like a good fit design wise anyways.  The French and Germans emphasize mobility over firepower and protection in their tanks, so at least that's a match.

British emphasize protection as they always seem too (in ships as well as tanks historically) and you get one guess who emphasizes firepower from the NATO side....

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

British emphasize protection as they always seem too (in ships as well as tanks historically) and you get one guess who emphasizes firepower from the NATO side....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

From my reading the 4 western MBT's (Chally II, Leclarc, M1 and Leopard II) all share roughly the same protection and have gun which is the same or comparable. The main differences reflect the thinking of the military they were designed for. The Leclarc is starting to see real combat and is up against the occasional ATGM so we will see how it performs in real life. Only the M1 and Chally II have seen tank vs tank combat and even then in limited sense. The Merk 4 also is similar but emphasis crew protection, cross country performance and the ability to interact closely with infantry.

I don't think we will see another turbine driven tank, although a small turbine type APU might happen. Crew survivability from ATGM's and IED's will be key. Some weight reduction and a certain amount of compatibility will be important.