'Hard-sell' navy targets lagging military profile

[dimsum]

If true, that is garbage.  I question its veracity on on point though

In major warships the officers don't wait in line - they take their meals in the Wardroom.

Which only leaves KINGSTON-Class Ships, which sucks because those would be my peers.  However, there are less than 40 people on board those ships, 5 of which are officers, including the Captain.  Everyone knows everybody else quite well.  You know the names of the wives, husbands, kids etc of everyone on board.  The entire Ships Company is pretty tight - really tight. And I have never seen anything as described that in my time - I have always seen the officers eat last and the CO dead last. 

I suppose it could have been a MARS IV candidate or something....but something like that wouldn't fly for very long - word would spread to all messes before the meal was even over and the Coxswain would be speaking with the XO before Out Pipes, for sure.

The only other case of people eating before other people would be Afternoon Watchmen to Dinner, but that's due to time constraints.  That aside, as MARS said, the story doesn't sound right.

 

[blacktriangle]

I had an enlightening (and fully sober) conversation with an experienced stoker last month about navy retention problems. He was just starting a shore posting and was very happy to get away from the ship. Not because he disliked his job, which I found astounding seeing as he seemed to have spent most of his career below decks in the engine room for days on end, but the leadership.

He simply hated his officers, and it was his assertion (through the chain smoking) that this dislike of their officers was a primary reason for sailors getting out in droves. He might have been a professional 'officer hater' as far as I know, but was quite emphatic, and seemed to have a special 'thing' for MARS officers. He was also seriously thinking about getting out to do something else, so may have been trying to rationalize this decision in some way.

Anyways, just thought I'd drop that ray of sunshine into the mix.  ;D

I had a very similar chat with a senior stoker on a flight a while back. He also had a hate on for MARS officers.

So was it the same guy, or just a trend?  ;D

I still find it hard to believe that any CF officer would cut to the front of a meal line, and pull out a line about education...

Tons of NCMs have degrees or are working towards them...

 

[Monsoon]

The only other case of people eating before other people would be Afternoon Watchmen to Dinner, but that's due to time constraints.  That aside, as MARS said, the story doesn't sound right.

My thought exactly. I can tell you that my reaction to a couple of day-working, non-element riders chirping about line priority when I'm trying to get to watch wouldn't be pretty (particularly if they were standing in the line at 1130 when afternoon watchmen eat), but it wouldn't occur to me to pull out a line about education because:

a) Lots of officers on the Kingston class don't have degrees; and

b) Lots of NCMs do.

I smell a misunderstanding. X-Mo: Do you remember what these people were sailing in support of? We could probably pin it down to a specific ship and, by extension, even a specific person. Small navy.

All that aside, sure - MARS officers are dicks, but mostly just to each other. To be honest I've always thought the relationship between officers and NCMs in the army was worse, based on my discussions with various army types. My guess is that this is a case of "the grass is always browner".

 

[gcclarke]

It's not someone trying to pull something like that that is completely unbelievable. I'm sure it's happened at least once before. What would be unbelievable is such elitist behavior being tolerated by his peers and superiors.

 

[4Feathers]

In your 2nd year in the CF, you're able to earn a wage that's in excess of the Canadian average salary.

Money is not the problem.  We earn good money for what we do.

Five years straight on ship (cross-decked from STJ to MON just in time for a SNMG-1 trip!) and duty watches every 2 weeks (or less!) plus continual manning shortages, taskings, secondary duties, etc etc, it wears on ya.

The hard part is finding the right people.  I'd rather find the right people than have to put up with the wrong ones who are there solely for the money. 

How do we attract those people?  They're out there, but how do we bring them in?

Personally, I think the best recruiters are the average sailors that are currently in the CF.  They have the best hands-on knowledge and experience WRT what our jobs actually entail, and how we do our business.

I think that if there was some sort of "head hunter" bonus paid to regular CF members for every person we brought in the door who successfully completed basic training and basic trades training, you'd some improvement in numbers, and BETTER SELECTION, as the people who'd come in would be more likely to be well suited, as the CF Members would help ween out those who weren't as suitable, and those who came in the door would be better prepared than the normal lines of BS that they string at the recruiting centers.

Personally, I think the recruiting system is broken.  And has been for years. 

How many of us were lied to by a recruiter?  Raise your hands...  I know I was. 

Fix the recruiting system, and in the meantime, employ your existing sailors as headhunters.  I'm sure we all have a couple of friends or cousins or such that we'd be able to see wearing a uniform.

Parts of what you say are logical, and your point about 5 years straight on ship is the reality of it. Recruiting is not broke though, they are more successful now than ever in bringing in people, it's keeping them that is the problem. As far as recruiters lying to get pers in, I don't buy that. Finally, the Navy employs specialist recruiting teams across the country to put front line sailors at recruiting events so the public can hear first hand what the job entails. IMHO anyone who wears the uniform is a recruiter, and like everything, there are good and bad ones.

 

[X-mo-1979]

My thought exactly. I can tell you that my reaction to a couple of day-working, non-element riders chirping about line priority when I'm trying to get to watch wouldn't be pretty (particularly if they were standing in the line at 1130 when afternoon watchmen eat), but it wouldn't occur to me to pull out a line about education because:

a) Lots of officers on the Kingston class don't have degrees; and

b) Lots of NCMs do.

I smell a misunderstanding. X-Mo: Do you remember what these people were sailing in support of? We could probably pin it down to a specific ship and, by extension, even a specific person. Small navy.

All that aside, sure - MARS officers are dicks, but mostly just to each other. To be honest I've always thought the relationship between officers and NCMs in the army was worse, based on my discussions with various army types. My guess is that this is a case of "the grass is always browner".

I can remember it being around the time of Kosovo and it was on the east coast (Halifax) for certain.Honestly I don't remember what it was for.Just a exchange I think.

Either way true or untrue the stigma seems to be prevalent.From people in the navy and people outside.Maybe that has issues with retention and recruitment as well.

 

[MARS]

I would be filled with surprise, disappointment and utter disbelief if disaffection with the Naval Officer Corps – specifically one part of the Naval Operations Branch – was the reason for any measurable retention or recruitment issues.

When I was an OS recruit, I remember being indoctrinated to have a healthy degree of cynicism for officers.  This was in the form of the NCOs barking the old “Don’t call me “Sir”, I work for a living/my parents were married” line.  It obviously did not have any lasting effect on me, and I suspect few others.

The fact that MARS officers are dicks to each other – and to greater and lesser degrees, this is the case – comes from the other old line “MARS officers eat their young”.  It is entirely true.  The reason for that is found in MARCORD 4-15 (Charge Command and Control of HMC Ships).  The relevant portion, dealing with “Charge” reads:

----------------------------------
Charge of the ship is the responsibility vested in the Commanding Officer for proper and safe movements and operation of the ship and her company.  CHARGE may be delegated to the OOW who then exercises command over all persons onboard except the Commanding Officer and Executive Officer in accordance with reference B .

CHARGE includes responsibility for the following:

a.  Conning: an officer CONS the ship by giving specific wheel and/or engine orders to alter the course and/or speed of the ship;
----------------------------------

The Officer of the watch is (the often junior) Officer who has responsibility for the safe navigation of the Ship.  This is the officer who is all alone on the bridge at 0200, lets say..in dense fog and busy waters with navigational hazards (read: rocks) less than 1 mile away.  Like all junior officers, he finds himself over tired and somewhat unsure of his skills.  At least, that was how my first night watch started.  I am not describing any sort of unrealistic scenario, just another night in the Strait of Juan de Fuca on the West Coast.  Literally the day prior, I was on under training, my CTO hammering my bag for some training deficiency or another.  24 hrs later – poof – just me, my Watch on Deck….and the entire Ship’s Company sleeping below decks.

The Ship’s Company MUST trust implicitly that whichever officer is on the bridge KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING.  Most don’t work on the bridge and some almost never venture up there.  They don’t see which officers are stronger and which are weaker.  If they have doubts, they don’t sleep – at least not well.  Again, this trust in skills must be implicit and it must never be lost.  They go to sleep KNOWING that they won’t be woken up because I have run the ship aground.  That is a pretty heavy burden – certainly not like keeping people alive in combat, but keeping them alive every day during the most routine and mundane operations.

So, yes, we eat our young.  No one wants some under-skilled bag of hammers to be up there.  Least of all not us, because that person would be one of our peers.  Perhaps this makes us dicks in other areas and interactions and perhaps that is noticed by the Ship’s Company.  I am not excusing that, simply providing a possible explanation for it.

Based on some historic developments, the relationship between the officers and their subordinates “should” be closer and more intimate than the other two elements.  We are the ones with the formal Divisional System.  The Mainguy Report describes it, in part, as such:

http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/resource_pages/controversies/rcn_mutinies.html

---------------------------------
The organization of what is known as the Divisional System is provided for in the Regulations. The object of the organization is to ensure that officers, chief petty officers and petty officers are enabled to develop to the fullest extent their powers of command and leadership and to keep in close and constant contact with those under their command. The number of men in a division varies. The outlined objects of the organization are to decentralize command and the responsibility for discipline, ship work and welfare. It is provided that divisional officers shall study their men’s interests sufficiently to be well acquainted with their conditions of living both on board and ashore. It is also provided that whatever possible men work under their own officers, chief petty officers and petty officers. It is the duty also of the divisional officer to encourage and supervise games, sports and other forms of recreation. He is also to keeping close touch with his men and be ready to advise and help them to the best of his ability. He is also charged with responsibility of receiving requests and representations and submitting them to higher authority when required. He is charged with special duties in respect of advancements, with assisting a man who is charged with default, for a higher rating and to recommend men worthy of advancement. He is required to submit names of men in his division who from zeal and ability deserve favourable consideration. He is charged with the payment of particular attention to the training of those inferior to him in rank, to check harshness and irritating language, to correct bad habits and carelessness and generally to act as a guide, philosopher, friend, father-confessor, reformer and superintendent of the men, their welfare, their living space and their working conditions.
-------------------------------------

That is not to say it is a perfect system by any means, but it is a system that by and large works well.

Sorry for the hijack – I just don’t think that having a hate on for MARS officers is anything significant in relation to retention.

Edited for grammar

 

[Monsoon]

Good points, MARS. But c'mon - someone once butted in line in front of someone else. We all know that's the real reason the navy doesn't have enough NETs.  ;D

 

[CallOfDuty]

  Great post MARS.  I don't think any mature person has reason to have a hate on for an officer based on what their job is.  I would like to think that people know everyone has a job to do, and they do it.
  However, from my navy buddies.....their biggest complaint seems about the cheifs and P.O.'s.  I don't know why exactly, but I hear alot of bitching about how the junior guys have to go and clean the cheifs and po's crappers and other things, such as one story  where the senior guys ran out of bread  to go with their suppers, and ordering the junior ranks to give up their bread.
  I don't know how much of this is true, or just overexaggerated...??
  But all of this stuff gets out....and ends up giving the navy a bad name.

 

[CallOfDuty]

.....I would say the real reason the navy is short on NET's is because of CFNES!! :-X

 

[Monsoon]

  However, from my navy buddies.....their biggest complaint seems about the cheifs and P.O.'s.  I don't know why exactly, but I hear alot of bitching about how the junior guys have to go and clean the cheifs and po's crappers and other things, such as one story  where the senior guys ran out of bread  to go with their suppers, and ordering the junior ranks to give up their bread.
  I don't know how much of this is true, or just overexaggerated...??

There's definitely two sides to every story:

- Yes, only JRs do cleaning stations (we don't have the luxury of hiring civie contractors to do it, so someone has to do it and the senior guys have other things on their plate), but there's no such thing as a "Chief's and PO's crapper". Any head onboard can be used by anyone, except the one in the CO's cabin. And anyone who would complain about him not cleaning it himself is just a career crank.

- There's no such thing as "senior guy" bread and "junior guy" bread. The ship is given an allotment, and when it runs low everyone runs out at the same time. If two messes have no bread and one mess has some, guess what? It gets shared out.

The takeaway lesson here is that in the confines of a ship, otherwise reasonable people get seriously irked about apparently inconsequential things. That's a quality of life issue. Their bosses are just a convenient target.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I've never been Navy, but heard some of the grips some of the Jnr Ranks folks have about being navy when I was posted to a Navy unit.

- watch rotations;
- POs that are lazy and don't care about them;
- the amount of unneccessary fuckery they put up with from some of their NCOs and Officers (at sea and alongside0;
- having to clean the heads of the Chief's and PO's (I equate that to having had to wipe my Tp Ldr's ass in the field...not on IMO.  I'd not be cleaning someone else's shitter for them.  This was one I heard ALOT)
- having to Live-In at places like A Block while on REALLY long courses with no choice in the matter (all the ones I talked to would be on the economy if given the choice);
- basically the Navy being a poorly-run Adult Day Care Center.  I am not talking about OS and ABs, this was LS and MS types.

Or how about the guy I know who wanted to OT but his PO just didn't push his paperwork up the CoC for over a year?  Was the guy competent and met all the requirements?  He sure did, as he got his OT.  What kind of "recruiter" to you think he is for the Navy?  Having to deal with my CP02 when I was OTing, he hated the fact that I would print and highlight DAODs, CFAOs, etc and present them to him in our meetings, basically telling me he didn't care what the regulations said, I'd listen to him.  I actually laughed a little in his face.  "Sorry Chief, the Jedi Mind Trick doesn't work with me" I felt like saying.

Now, I know some Navy folks are going to say "I doubt that happened" or whatever.  And...there is part of your problem on the retention side of the house;  people ask sailors why they don't want to be sailors anymore, get answers and then blow them off.  IMO, if you don't want the answers, don't waste time asking the questions.

Again, I am not Navy, never sailed but thats the some of the stuff I have heard from people/saw myself. 

Personally, most of the POs I had dealings with had the Leadership skills of an average Combat Arms Cpl.  I'll finish by saying they were mostly NavComm types that I worked with.  I could see why the Jnr Ranks would be unhappy in that particular trade. 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

As for the point on Stokers hating MARs Officers, well its true but I also like to point out most Stokers have no use for anyone who isn't a Stoker type. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact a lot of them have never ventured into an Ops Room or onto the Bridge during an actual evolution or operation. To them we are just riders and always will be.

 

[Monsoon]

- having to clean the heads of the Chief's and PO's (I equate that to having had to wipe my Tp Ldr's *** in the field...not on IMO.  I'd not be cleaning someone else's shitter for them.  This was one I heard ALOT)

So who cleans the toilets at Shearwater? Maybe they do it themselves.

Now, I know some Navy folks are going to say "I doubt that happened" or whatever.

No - what you described sounds like stuff that happens. It sounds like stuff that happens in the navy; it sounds like stuff that happens in the army; it sounds like stuff that happens in the air force. In fact, I willing to bet that a straw poll would show that there are more bad OT stories than good ones out there, but it's far from a specific problem for the navy.

Since we're dealing so liberally in the realm of the anecdotal here, I can say that in my time at an NRD, of the two dozen or so guys from local militia units who came by requesting to OT to NAVRES and who we gave information to and explained that they had to request it through their unit, only two or three requests for OT were passed to us by the army units. Maybe a lot of those guys changed their minds, but I know for a fact (having found out after the fact) that in several cases the units just sat on the requests. Let's not pretend that this is a navy-specific issue.

Personally, most of the POs I had dealings with had the Leadership skills of an average Combat Arms Cpl.

We can't all be lion tamers. The Cbt Arms consist of four-or-so trades - where's the recruiting crisis in RMS Clerks?

 

[X-mo-1979]

Good points, MARS. But c'mon - someone once butted in line in front of someone else. We all know that's the real reason the navy doesn't have enough NETs.  ;D

Dont underestimate rumors!That is but one story in a apparent disgruntled naval NCM story books.As I said earlier I have no clue about the navy,but have heard all the stories.

 

[CallOfDuty]

  Who cleans the crappers in Shearwater??  It's Heather, lol.  Sometimes I help her lift her bucket 'cause it's heavy 

 

[MARS]

Time for some more famous quotes from MARS...

"You are here to serve the Ship, the Ship is not here to serve you". 

Can't remember exactly which CPO2 growled that at me way back when, but it is entirely true.  In addition to being our ideal combat platform and preferred mode of transportation, the Ship is also our home - for extended periods of time.  Despite advancements in technology, the Navy still requires us to "do "stuff".  Nothing much happens without someone doing something.  Cleaning Stations is one of the more important things. 

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, for a while now to find some statistics that would go back to Nelson's time seeing that it is the 21st of October after all  that would compare deaths caused by hygiene and malnutrition to deaths caused by enemy action.  I suspect strongly that the former outweighs the latter.  So yes, the Ship must be cleaned, regularly.  No one enjoys it, but I think too few really understand it.

A couple of years ago when mumps hit HMCS GLACE BAY her crew was quarantined for a couple of weeks.  Think about the impact on the Fleet Commander's operational capability when that happens.  Now imagine if that happened on a frigate right after leaving port and on her way into theatre.  So yeah, the ship has to be cleaned - often.  And yeah, junior NCMs do that.  MS and Petty Officers supervise it - is that really so different from the rest of the CF?  Heck, that was one of the reasons I really really wanted to move up the ranks - so I could be one of the guys supervising.  Chiefs and officers are supposed to be spending that time administering to the wider needs of their subordinates.

I once had a LS ask me why, unlike the other ship that had just arrived alongside, our officers weren't helping to land and hook up the shore cable, like they were across the jetty.  As I hung up the phone I explained to her that the other ship had just finished a 10 week deployment, and, having likely done cleaning stations and all other post-deployment administration prior to coming alongside, they were probably going to secure for post deployment leave as soon as that cable was across.  Not 10 minutes later "secure" was piped and the entire Ship's Company literally flew off that ship and she went into Sunday Routine. I then explained that I had just been in conversation with her career manager trying to get her loaded on her next career course and would she rather I put that off to help land the cable?  It being 1530, I suppose I could just call her CM another time, but with the course starting in a couple of days and all... Those facts appeared to make sense to her in terms of how I was spending my time, but I guess it is not always immediately so.

This leads into quote #2;

"As long as they are bitching, they still have hope.  You really need to worry when they stop bitching"

Remember, despite the careful actions of senior members of the Ships in question (the CO using his cap to cover a list of demands) and the careful writing of The Mainguy Report, yours is a Navy that had a very real mutiny, and somewhat recently.  That is a big deal.  There is no such thing as a "work stoppage" on a ship at sea.  The hands in ATHABASKAN, CRESCENT and MAGNIFICENT refused to come out of their messes because they felt the system had completely failed and there was no further hope.  In essence, they stopped bitching.  Perhaps that quote is too often misinterpreted and more action should be taken sooner on things.  I don't know for sure.  I do know that the smoking area - likely like any smoking area in the army or air force - is where the rumours start and in a closed environment like a ship at sea, they spread quickly.  I aslo know that a well placed comment, correction or clarification is often enough to turn things around.  Communication is key in both directions and a lack of it is sometimes disastrous.

On a lighter note, and to turn things around, lets look at "Stand Easy".  Alongside or when sailing in the 4th Degree of Readiness, you had better have a damned good reason for interfering with a sailor's God-given, Charter-enshrined, union enforced "right" to have a smoke and take a break at 1000 and 1415 everyday.  I suppose an enemy aircraft dropping a bomb on us might qualify as a good reason.  Or a sea monster attacking. The common joke among the two senior messes is that the Junior Ranks will down tools 5 minutes before stand-easy so as to make their way outside and be in all respects ready to light up as soon as the pipe is made. And then they won't move an inch until "Out Pipes" is made.  Again, a good-natured and lighthearted bit of humour and an exaggeration, but I was taught as a junior officer that there are few things too important that they can't wait until after Stand Easy.  At the same time my XO said to me: "I don't really care what time you show up for work or when you leave, so long as you get all of your work done...and "stand-easy" and "Hands to Dinner" (lunch)" don't apply to officers."  Fair enough.

Petty Officers who are perceived to not care about their sailors is indeed distressing if it is perceived and/or experienced on a wide scale.  The Chiefs and Petty Officers are known as, and take an immense amount of well-deserved pride in being the "backbone of the Navy".  They come from the ranks.  They are supposed to be that link that explains the reasons for whatever orders come down from Command.  They form an integral part of the Divisional System.  They can relate - directly - to the concerns held by the junior sailors.  That is why they are the "backbone".  sigh...I just don't know...I have seen good Chiefs and bad Chiefs, good officers and bad, at all ranks.  Occasionally - very occasionally - I have seen both groups come together in some sort of messed up, perfect storm of a posting plot that results in a particular ship having a bad go of things for a time.  But the adults ashore got wind of it and made the necessary changes.  Those experiences suck and likely stay with people for a long time. I maintain though, that I have yet to see anything approaching a scale that would lead me to believe we have a problem that affects retention in any measurable sense.

Cheers,

MARS

edited for grammar

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So who cleans the toilets at Shearwater? Maybe they do it themselves.

Not sure, but I'd bet it is the cleaners.  However, when I was living-in at Warrior Block, I would have cleaned the Jnr Ranks areas if told to, but not been so happy if I had to go down the hall and do the WOs and Sgt's ones as well, as I didn't use them.  If they were common areas, IMO, that would be different, but I guess the point is that these are areas that only the Cs & Ps use and the Jnr Ranks have to clean them.  And that is what seemed to be the issue. 

No - what you described sounds like stuff that happens. It sounds like stuff that happens in the navy; it sounds like stuff that happens in the army; it sounds like stuff that happens in the air force. In fact, I willing to bet that a straw poll would show that there are more bad OT stories than good ones out there, but it's far from a specific problem for the navy.

Agreed 100%.  I didn't mention that, this being a Navy specific topic. 

Since we're dealing so liberally in the realm of the anecdotal here, I can say that in my time at an NRD, of the two dozen or so guys from local militia units who came by requesting to OT to NAVRES and who we gave information to and explained that they had to request it through their unit, only two or three requests for OT were passed to us by the army units. Maybe a lot of those guys changed their minds, but I know for a fact (having found out after the fact) that in several cases the units just sat on the requests. Let's not pretend that this is a navy-specific issue.

Again, I am not saying it is a Navy specific issue, I believe it is a CF one as you are saying.  No one wants their people jumping ship.  ;D

We can't all be lion tamers. The Cbt Arms consist of four-or-so trades - where's the recruiting crisis in RMS Clerks?

What I mean is leadership in the general sense, not specific to the Cmbt Amrs or Army.  I still carry the little white card "The Principles of Leadership" [CFP 131(1), para 405]in my wallet I was given when I got my Leaf.  Specifically, the 4th and 6th bulleted points:

- Lead by example
- Know your soldiers and promote their welfare.

If LS Bloggins has a desire to OT, meets the requirements, I don't think the decision on whether he/she has a fair shot at it should be decided at the Buffer level.  The Buffer, in this case, gets to fill out his assessment on his/her sailor, and thats it.  Sitting on the mbr's VOT app is not "promoting welfare" IMO.

Again, this is an issue within all 3 services, but I only mentioned the navy in this topic.  I recall a fairly recent thread on this site where a young Pte (army) wanted to OT, but was told no one can OT out of the Infantry by his Sgt or WO.  We all know that is crap, any Pte not 3s qual'd can *request* a MOC reassignment. 

As I said, I can only comment on the very little I saw and heard, and I did indicate what MOC I was working with primarily.  I am not saying that the navy is FUBAR, just adding my comments "from the bench, not the ice".

Cheers 

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Or a sea monster attacking.

Sea monsters know better as they have stand easy as well.

 

[Monsoon]

Not sure, but I'd bet it is the cleaners.  However, when I was living-in at Warrior Block, I would have cleaned the Jnr Ranks areas if told to, but not been so happy if I had to go down the hall and do the WOs and Sgt's ones as well, as I didn't use them.  If they were common areas, IMO, that would be different, but I guess the point is that these are areas that only the Cs & Ps use and the Jnr Ranks have to clean them.  And that is what seemed to be the issue.

I hear you, but my point is that when living in Warrior Block you have the luxury of dividing your working life and your non-working life. You'll clean what you're told to at work, but you won't clean someone else's "home". On a ship, the home is part of the work.

And as I mentioned before, all heads (except the CO's) are common areas. Some are located nearer to where the C&POs hang out, but they aren't reserved exclusively for their use. The griping on this account is understandable and unavoidable but... I don't like spending four hours drafting an OPORD after standing 12 hours of watch in a day (including the mids). But that's part of my job.

Agreed 100%.  I didn't mention that, this being a Navy specific topic. 

Okay - but this thread is about trying to sort out why the navy in particular is having trouble recruiting/retaining. I have a feeling that the broader CF issues could be debated until we all grow old and feeble.