Infantry training in Air Force

[brihard]

I could only assume that with the F-35 arriving and likely the P-8 purchase soon to be finalized, our current WASF model and general base security won’t cut it with the Americans. Maybe the security issue, among other shortfalls with our infrastructure, will have to be fixed before the keys to the planes are handed over.

I obviously can’t speak to that at all, but I imagine CAF will find a way to be responsive to that should it come to it.

 

[brihard]

The Navy folks will scoff and say "we're Naval Aviators".

Not a joke - I actually heard that once.



The Aussies I knew had some...let's say "not very nice words" about the role and utility of AFSEC.

That being said, they have dogs. The puppies are cute.

Was it just normal trade-on-trade, unit-vs-unit bullshit or was there real meat to it?

 

[dapaterson]

Was it just normal trade-on-trade, unit-vs-unit bullshit or was there real meat to it?

Probably Aurora ACSOs... you know what they're like.

 

[Halifax Tar]

In my experience it was more noticeable in the air force, when I worked with the artillery I was treated very well, same on with on ship. Might be part of my occupation, as others have mentioned it to me as well.

I find it has a lot to do with personality. If you're competent and assertive you wont get over run.

But I have never worked in the RCAF either, so maybe that's a whole different ball of wax.

 

[dimsum]

Was it just normal trade-on-trade, unit-vs-unit bullshit or was there real meat to it?

If you're talking about the "Naval Aviator" thing then probably just trade stuff. I mean, it's not officially (well, anymore) a Canadian term since the RCN stopped flying things.

As for AFSEC, I think it was more that they don't (or didn't) deploy.

 

[KevinB]

Air Force security; something else everyone appears to take more seriously compared to the RCAF…

FIFY.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Yup, I’m thinking an armed security team for domestic work only. There are precedents in nuclear security, the Parliamentary Protective Service, security at the Royal Canadian Mint, etc. Someone better than you at doing security and protective stuff, so you and your troops can stick to fixing planes, which the rest of us definitely can’t do. In the case of an overseas deployment, CAF could determine if it needs to force generate either a fully self sufficient security force, or a contribution to a coalition force. This could be grabbed from RegF combat arms for a “right the fuck now” deployment, or force generated from PRes for subsequent rotos.

I take it as a given that the force protection posture will differ in Canada versus on a deployed operation, and that domestic requirements should generally be pretty steady-state. Not to say CAF troops couldn’t augment domestically if needed.

I mean, obviously it would be great if we had a full time, fully deployable tailored force, but a lot of things would be great that aren’t necessarily viable or cost effective. And I think our inevitable junior partner role in any coalition makes it more likely that we can continue to risk manage this.

Though, credit where it’s due, obviously there was that one time at Bagram where the RAF mechs geared up and merked a bunch of Talibs who breached the wire.

I have guarded airfields, during the Greenham Common unpleasantness and during exercises, and 'attacked' them during exercises.

Depending on the threat level of course, it can become an insanely boring, hugely resource intensive operation like Greenham Common or your AFG example.

During Greenham Common, for example, over a brigade's worth of infantry, RAF Regiment and other resources were deployed 24/7 (plus loads of police) for many months, defending against largely unarmed civilian infiltrators and protestors. And we didn't even need to worry about the 'footprint', beyond the airfield perimeter fence.

Attacking an airfield can be laughably easy. Without ruthlessly well trained, fully staffed and superbly equipped troops in the role it is easy to make any guard force look like ... well... a bunch of RAF Regt wankers.

Well, there was that one time they rumbled us with the Scimitars and we ran like terrified school girls

All that waffling to say that I can't see the CAF investing the resources in a RAF Regt type unit given our lack of a permanently expeditionary style air force, and consequently low threat levels, and the unlikely situation where we'd be operating outside of a force with coalition partners.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Yup, I’m thinking an armed security team for domestic work only. There are precedents in nuclear security, the Parliamentary Protective Service, security at the Royal Canadian Mint, etc. Someone better than you at doing security and protective stuff, so you and your troops can stick to fixing planes, . . .

And there's also a precedent with the civilian security guards at the Lahr airfield.

LB: Lahr Military Police Section

By Lieutenant-Colonel Paul Thobo-Carlsen (Retired) , CMPA Director of History & Heritage.

www.cmpa-apmc.org

The unique security situation in Europe and presence of a busy Air Movements Unit also saw LMPS overseeing a 90-person civilian security guard force and a 13-person air terminal security screening sub-section.[3] Because of the terrorist threat, CFE civilian guards were armed with 9mm pistols beginning in 1987. A small number of civilian guards were also specially trained as security dog handlers to protect the base ammunition compound.

original caption - Civilian security guard Laura Ross qualifies on 9mm pistol, circa 1988. (DND: Sentinel, Vol 24, No. 2, 1989)

The civilian security guards were a mix of Canadians (mostly dependents) and some Germans.


Shoulder patches worn by civilian security guards at bases in Canadian Forces Europe (CFE).
Left - worn by locally hired Canadians; Right - worn by contracted German guards

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I could only assume that with the F-35 arriving and likely the P-8 purchase soon to be finalized, our current WASF model and general base security won’t cut it with the Americans. Maybe the security issue, among other shortfalls with our infrastructure, will have to be fixed before the keys to the planes are handed over.

Can’t speak for fighter stuff but there have been P-8s on our airfield from more than one nation.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Can’t speak for fighter stuff but there have been P-8s on our airfield from more than one nation.

Having an aircraft at an airfield for a short stay vs hosting its full capabilities as a main operating base are two entirely different things.

 

[Furniture]

Can’t speak for fighter stuff but there have been P-8s on our airfield from more than one nation.

Did other countries bring a security detachment?

I know during Maple Flag America used to bring up security forces... I got challenged by one of them in my office at 2am while on shift.

 

[Quirky]

Americans take their security seriously, armed guards, access points on flight lines and 24/7 patrols. All this at their own home
bases. I’ve seen on more than one occasion where one of our guys was dropped at gun point for walking through perimeter sensors on the flight line, unintentionally of course. We will never get to this level is security.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Did other countries bring a security detachment?

I know during Maple Flag America used to bring up security forces... I got challenged by one of them in my office at 2am while on shift.

Not that I'm aware of...the aircraft are all inside a restricted area though. CAF members need a pass to get on that side of the Wing.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Having an aircraft at an airfield for a short stay vs hosting its full capabilities as a main operating base are two entirely different things.

Is several weeks a short stay? I've been on a few Allies airbases including USN, USAF, RAF, RNoAF, JMSDF that have hosted Cdn and other VP/LRP forces. Never seen anything "above normal" for security for that base.

To date, I've seen USN, RAF and RNoAF P-8s on canadian airfields, and not just for a RON. Cutlass Fury is an example, and they use our WOps, etc the way we use theirs when they're hosting us.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

American Air Forces takes security much serious than other Air Forces, I remember the Hamilton Air Show in the 1990s had a US bomber on the ground walk around display. In the early morning hours ( that is when I saw him ) they had a large German Shepherd attached to the nose gear on a very long tie out. ( the plane might of been a B1B? do not recall but I remember the dog) . Dog was removed once the show grounds were open to the public and replaced by an airman.

 

[dimsum]

We will never get to this level is security.

We, and our allies not called "the USA", will not get to that level.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Is several weeks a short stay? I've been on a few Allies airbases including USN, USAF, RAF, RNoAF, JMSDF that have hosted Cdn and other VP/LRP forces. Never seen anything "above normal" for security for that base.

To date, I've seen USN, RAF and RNoAF P-8s on canadian airfields, and not just for a RON. Cutlass Fury is an example, and they use our WOps, etc the way we use theirs when they're hosting us.

Yes, several weeks is a short stay. Also, they may not have operated at full capabilities.

 

[quadrapiper]

RCAF regiment would be nice. I am sure we could build the structure. Heck, it has been seriously talked about recently in organizations that could make it happen. But I known we wouldn’t be able to fill it, leaving us in the same place we are now.

Wonder how many infantry would transfer.

Also curious if there's any contingencies for using local PRes to augment at wings.

 

[childs56]

A long long long time ago, not as long ago as the Germany team, we did a exercise with US security forces. It surprised me how much security they have and what little was at the time actually known about the job they did. We had multiple teams from different aspects of security. Nuke support, airfield support, naval protection and god knows how many other teams of various make up. They take security serious. They rely on lots of tech with a QRF. it was interesting considering we did not have much if any of their capabilities.

 

[Quirky]

Also curious if there's any contingencies for using local PRes to augment at wings.

What local PRes? There aren't a whole lot of those living in those communities for various reasons. I know many people who've released from Cold Lake and they either left the area or moved into oil and/or construction. Why would they come back to do WASF for measly pay, shit working hours and incompetent leadership. People who know what WASF is won't be joining the PRes to do it again.