Infantry training in Air Force

[KevinB]

Attitudes like that is why people are leaving the CAF, but keep going.



So much trust in leadership right now considering the failures in pilot pay and PLD replacements. Lets see what other genius ideas come out of the cubical farms!

You know you went from having a legitimate point, to going off half cocked rather than chosing to debate @SeaKingTacco 's point by point.
@brihard does a much better job than you to explain what I think was your intended point.

 

[KevinB]

I’d love to see you in charge and see if you do better. There are about a thousand factors you don’t see in every decision that is made. There is only one way to fix the leadership problem: by people stepping up and being part of the solution. Please feel free to get a commission, get selected to become a Unit CO or a formation commander, and do better.

Both you are and @Quirky seem to pick out certain aspects to flip out over.
If you look at @Quicky's original post. I will assume it is the highlighted part that set you off

What local PRes? There aren't a whole lot of those living in those communities for various reasons. I know many people who've released from Cold Lake and they either left the area or moved into oil and/or construction. Why would they come back to do WASF for measly pay, shit working hours and incompetent leadership. People who know what WASF is won't be joining the PRes to do it again.

Perhaps his comment is pointing out that the RCAF doesn't generally understand Ground Force Security aspects?
Asking for a description of his angst is a lot more fruitful than lashing out at him.

 

[Quirky]

You know you went from having a legitimate point, to going off half cocked rather than chosing to debate @SeaKingTacco 's point by point.
@brihard does a much better job than you to explain what I think was your intended point.

My point was that restricted airfield security on a day to day basis shouldn't be left to the RCAF NCM trades as secondary duties. Airfield security, if taken seriously, should be done by a primary force, right now its seen as an afterthought of one of those things we need to do, but won't direct the necessary resources to do it. It isn't just aircraft techs doing it, it's all NCM trades which are short staffed in their own. People complain why their claims take so long, probably because its of secondary duties like WASF that take away clerks from their desks. Saying 'you're a soldier, you are responsible for security, suck it up, why are you even in the military' is a cop out response I've heard before which isn't worth replying to. The WASF issue has been going on for years and years and still no solution in sight.

 

[daftandbarmy]

You can bet your ass that if Westjet did need to provide their own security, they wouldn’t be rotating their maintainers through that role.

They would probably hire civilian security, like Commissionaires, of course

In the UK the MOD Police do alot of the static site security jobs for the military, and to protect other critically important national infrastructure, in various parts of the world.

Maybe we need to create a similar force to handle those 'short of nuclear conflagration' type tasks, like airfield security? Viz:

Ministry of Defence Police

Delivering unique specialist policing to protect the nation’s defences and national infrastructure

 

[MJP]

There’s a difference between ‘techs might be called upon to defend an airbase, a la Bagram attack, and a model that currently has it built in that techs will be pulled away from maintaining aircraft to do security roles domestically. The former is a shitty reality of war. The later is piss poor planning that fails to make proper use of very specialized and technically capable human resources. Is fleet maintenance and readiness not a constant issue? If so, why is it accepted that techs who want to fix airframes will be pulled away for a task that could much more appropriately and effectively be done otherwise?

Obviously anyone in CAF needs to be able to defend their position if that day ever comes. That’s very different from “well, we’re short resources, so let’s accept squandering the man hours of the people who fix our planes and helicopters”. There has to be a more effective way of doing that.

You can bet your ass that if Westjet did need to provide their own security, they wouldn’t be rotating their maintainers through that role.

Very valid point(s). I wonder how much of the future domestic security needs of RCAF can be fulfilled via non DND/CAF personnel (like what @daftandbarmy suggested WJ do) and what absolutely needs to be done by military folks. There is likely a contracted solution that while costing money can save PYs and other scarce resources (tech hours).

The deployed aspect is a bit harder but even in Afghanistan we used contractors including locals for some aspects of our security although that took time to mature.

 

[dapaterson]

If the RCAF wants JSF based in Canada, they will need to get religion about security.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Do you work for Westjet?

No, you do not.

Does Westjet face prospect of armed attack?

No, it does not.

Is Westjet an armed force?

No it is not.

Your analogy is terrible.

Maybe somebody forgot to mention it to you, but you belong to the Canadian Armed Forces. I know it is hard for some to understand this, but that makes nearly all of us liable to carry a weapon and do soldierly things, should the situation dictate. Frankly, I am not sure why you still serve with the CAF, given your constant whining here about how bad things are at your workplace and how stupid and incompetent your leadership is.

Back to the matter at hand: Force Protection.

Rather than whine, some of us are actually working behind the scenes to try to change the model to something that works and does not take precious technicians away from fixing aircraft. Even with that said, there are n

They would probably hire civilian security, like Commissionaires, of course

In the UK the MOD Police do alot of the static site security jobs for the military, and to protect other critically important national infrastructure, in various parts of the world.

Maybe we need to create a similar force to handle those 'short of nuclear conflagration' type tasks, like airfield security? Viz:

Ministry of Defence Police

Delivering unique specialist policing to protect the nation’s defences and national infrastructure

I think this is the way, at least domestically. Either create a new DND police and security force with civilian employees, or create a new federal division within the RCMP to provide security at DND establishments.

Overseas, we are going to either have to create an RCAF Regiment, or certain Army PRes units will have to be op tasked.

BTW, techs will still have to carry weapons. Sorry, Quirky.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Both you are and @Quirky seem to pick out certain aspects to flip out over.
If you look at @Quicky's original post. I will assume it is the highlighted part that set you off

Perhaps his comment is pointing out that the RCAF doesn't generally understand Ground Force Security aspects?
Asking for a description of his angst is a lot more fruitful than lashing out at him.

I am not sure where I « flipped out » but okay. I do get mildly irritated when people blame everyone but don’t want to be part of the solution. I quickly learned that when I think I can do better than my supervisor or even theirs, that’s it’s time to be promoted (or do the steps to be) into that job or shut up and endure. Typically, when you get into those jobs, you start to understand all the constrains and factors that go into decisions and it isn’t as black and white as I thought it would have been.

For WASF/FP, it isn’t a single person’s fault or even a generation of people’s fault. The problem goes way back and was exacerbated when MPs were taken away from the Wing’s C2 structure. The focus was then shifted to policing duties and the FP aspect has been largely ignored since.

 

[Quirky]

BTW, techs will still have to carry weapons. Sorry, Quirky.

I don’t think you know the difference between WASF and a tech carrying a weapon while doing their job. If I have to carry a side arm, be it domestically or deployed, then so be it. Let someone else play full soldier and watch the fence line.

 

[FJAG]

If the RCAF wants JSF based in Canada, they will need to get religion about security.

I think this is the way, at least domestically. Either create a new DND police and security force with civilian employees, or create a new federal division within the RCMP to provide security at DND establishments.

Overseas, we are going to either have to create an RCAF Regiment, or certain Army PRes units will have to be op tasked.

BTW, techs will still have to carry weapons. Sorry, Quirky.

So I can't help but think that there used to be a time, when the RCAF had their own police services, that the then Directorate of Provost and Security Services (DPSS) had two branches, a policing one and a security force which included -- ta da -- airfield gate and perimeter security. The Navy had something similar for dockyard security.

It strikes me as making eminent sense that the current MP structure should also cater to specialist departments including investigations, policing functions and security functions. They can obviously undergo specialized and different training to cater to the specific functions and, they can be supported by a ResF component that also functions in those distinct fields. It strikes me further that a member of the security field would not need the detailed knowledge in policing that MPs and investigators need and do not need the full gamut of training that an infantryman needs either.

My only caution again is that the RegF establishment should be large enough to provide all the necessary security functions on a day-to-day peacetime structure for all the facilities that need manned and armed security. The ResF component should solely be a surge capability needed to fill expanded needs during appropriate circumstances.

 

[PuckChaser]

I think this is the way, at least domestically. Either create a new DND police and security force with civilian employees, or create a new federal division within the RCMP to provide security at DND establishments.

Overseas, we are going to either have to create an RCAF Regiment, or certain Army PRes units will have to be op tasked.

Or we charge MPs with providing base and operational security and have RCMP provide policing functions for the base, PMQs and CFNIS. I'm sure we can man a lot of WASF tasks with MPs that are currently running speed checks if you're 10kph over.

All other RCAF trades end up as surge force to the WASF on a contingency basis for crisis response.

If the RCAF wants to create a RCAF Regiment, then they'll have to decide what capability they want to divest. PYs are a zero sum game and no one else is going to give them up for a new gate guard trade.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I don’t think you know the difference between WASF and a tech carrying a weapon while doing their job. If I have to carry a side arm, be it domestically or deployed, then so be it. Let someone else play full soldier and watch the fence line.

Pretty sure that I do.

But thanks for assuming.

 

[brihard]

BTW, techs will still have to carry weapons. Sorry, Quirky.

Quirky can be a huge dick and he and I have smashed heads over that. But you’re being a huge dick too. He has said absolutely nothing suggesting he wouldn’t gear up and do the job if necessary to protect himself, his team or his airframes, so maybe wind it in a bit, because your attack goes to the very core of his professionalism in a way he’s done nothing to justify.

Quirky can fix planes. I can’t. I don’t know if you can but I suspect not much. Few people on this site can. CAF hired him and his team to fix planes. Those planes spot and surveil and sometimes kill people and break their shit, so fixing them is a reasonably important job. It probably took longer and cost Canada more to teach him to do whatever the hell he does, than it took to teach me to command an infantry section back when that was my jam. Probably also took longer than it took to teach me to at least know the basics of being a cop.

It’s completely fair to look at the specialized technical role than he does, and then to ask whether any of his scheduled hours of work should be spent performing security takes that a dude like me could have been hired to do at much lesser opportunity cost.

It’s utterly reasonable to expect all trades to have enough training and proficiency to carry arms to defend themselves. I did convoys overseas with truckers and bin rats and clerks and veh techs, and I wouldn’t have likely wanted to bring them into a fight if I could choose ahead of time, but when ‘long halt’ was called they got out and did their bit. But it would be dumb to make that their primary function, even if temporarily, when there were logistical pallets to load and engines to fix. Sorta sounds like RCAF may not have the most optimal appreciation of what resources should be chosen ahead of time for tasks outside of their (critical, expensive) specialty.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If the RCAF wants to create a RCAF Regiment, then they'll have to decide what capability they want to divest. PYs are a zero sum game and no one else is going to give them up for a new gate guard trade.

History shows that the reason the RAF Regiment was formed in the first place was because the British Army screwed up airfield protection so badly during the Battle of Crete in 1941, contributing mightily to the fall of the island to the Germans, that the RAF couldn't bring themselves to trust them anymore.

I think if we try and bit harder to get that stuff right, during 'expeditionary operations' where the big bangs are more likely, the Army should be able to figure it out as the threat level dictates...

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I apologize.

 

[Furniture]

I think this is the way, at least domestically. Either create a new DND police and security force with civilian employees, or create a new federal division within the RCMP to provide security at DND establishments.

FTFY

The easiest way to ensure failure is to make it as difficult to get into, and as expensive as a police force to operate.

Make it a security force with the bulk of the people paid at the MCpl/Sgt level at best. Also, ensure the entry requirements aren't higher than most CAF trades. There are likely a lot of people who would jump at the chance to have a well paid, but boring job after a few years in the combat arms. That's how my trade at one time attracted most of it's members...

 

[Quirky]

WASF is just the tip of the secondary duty iceberg that is being piled onto people, which takes them away from their actual jobs. It might have worked in the early 2000s when a tech/clerk/supply would get the odd month to guard some aircraft, but the cupboards are bare now. We can’t keep chugging along doing the same thing pretending we’re 100% staffed.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

FTFY

The easiest way to ensure failure is to make it as difficult to get into, and as expensive as a police force to operate.

Make it a security force with the bulk of the people paid at the MCpl/Sgt level at best. Also, ensure the entry requirements aren't higher than most CAF trades. There are likely a lot of people who would jump at the chance to have a well paid, but boring job after a few years in the combat arms. That's how my trade at one time attracted most of it's members...

The problem in Canada is legislation.

It is really difficult (impossible?) to have armed security guards in Canada, outside of Armoured Car Services And Nuclear Power Plants

Unless- they are badged police officers.

The National Defence Act does allow for soldiers (I use that in the generic sense of CAF pers) to carry weapons and use armed force to defend a defence establishment. But not Armed security guards. If it did, we would have had armed Commissionaires, years ago.

That makes this pretty hard to do unless you are paying police salaries. Or we get the NDA amended.

 

[ueo]

Both you are and @Quirky seem to pick out certain aspects to flip out over.
If you look at @Quicky's original post. I will assume it is the highlighted part that set you off

Perhaps his comment is pointing out that the RCAF doesn't generally understand Ground Force Security aspects?
Asking for a description of his angst is a lot more fruitful than lashing out at him.

Seems I remember that each AF Base had several mid rank Grunts posted to "advise and assist" on matters of this type. Is this still in play?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Seems I remember that each AF Base had several mid rank Grunts posted to "advise and assist" on matters of this type. Is this still in play?

I recall it , too, but don’t know if it is still a thing.