Infantry training in Air Force

[dimsum]

What local PRes? There aren't a whole lot of those living in those communities for various reasons. I know many people who've released from Cold Lake and they either left the area or moved into oil and/or construction. Why would they come back to do WASF for measly pay, shit working hours and incompetent leadership. People who know what WASF is won't be joining the PRes to do it again.

I think most operational airbases have some sort of PRes presence near them.

Comox, Victoria, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Borden, Trenton, Ottawa, Valcartier, St-Hubert, Halifax, and Gagetown have PRes units near them.

The ones off the top of my head that don’t would be Moose Jaw, Portage, Cold Lake, Bagotville (NAVRES yes, Army Res no), Greenwood, Goose Bay, and Gander.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I think most operational airbases have some sort of PRes presence near them.

Comox, Victoria, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Borden, Trenton, Ottawa, Valcartier, St-Hubert, Halifax, and Gagetown have PRes units near them.

The ones off the top of my head that don’t would be Moose Jaw, Portage, Cold Lake, Bagotville (NAVRES yes, Army Res no), Greenwood, Goose Bay, and Gander.

Moose Jaw does, as does Portage (Winnipeg) and Greenwood

 

[SupersonicMax]

I think most operational airbases have some sort of PRes presence near them.

Comox, Victoria, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Borden, Trenton, Ottawa, Valcartier, St-Hubert, Halifax, and Gagetown have PRes units near them.

The ones off the top of my head that don’t would be Moose Jaw, Portage, Cold Lake, Bagotville (NAVRES yes, Army Res no), Greenwood, Goose Bay, and Gander.

Bagotville has an Army PRes unit nearby.

 

[KevinB]

And we know no one wants to go to Coold Lake, even enemy saboteurs

 

[brihard]

Nobody who has ever been army PRes should seriously consider the nearby presence of an army PRes unit as being relevant in figuring out wing security functions for operational airbases. The only way PRes enters this equation would be if RCAF decided to establish PRes class C positions for this role. And if they did, good luck filling that from just a local unit or two. I would be... cautious about making assumptions about getting enough PRes leadership of reasonable quality to staff those units on an ongoing basis.

 

[FJAG]

It is absolutely silly to even consider using reservists to fill full-time, continuing positions. It utterly defeats the fundamental concept of what reserve service is whether local or from some distant province.

If the RCAF truly needs security at their bases on a full-time basis beyond what they are capable of generating from within their own establishment then let them float a case for getting the PYs needed.

It's one thing to surge a capability from the reserves during periods of temporary heightened tensions or threats but to look at a full time, continuing capability is simply wrong. Who do they think they are? NDHQ?

 

[SupersonicMax]

Why would they come back to do WASF for measly pay, shit working hours and incompetent leadership.

I’d love to see you in charge and see if you do better. There are about a thousand factors you don’t see in every decision that is made. There is only one way to fix the leadership problem: by people stepping up and being part of the solution. Please feel free to get a commission, get selected to become a Unit CO or a formation commander, and do better.

 

[medicineman]

Moose Jaw does, as does Portage (Winnipeg) and Greenwood

Portage has an Arty Res Battery...and Winnipeg is a stumble/fall/crawl away

 

[brihard]

I’d love to see you in charge and see if you do better. There are about a thousand factors you don’t see in every decision that is made. There is only one way to fix the leadership problem: by people stepping up and being part of the solution. Please feel free to get a commission, get selected to become a Unit CO or a formation commander, and do better.

Ok, but is he factually wrong? Does the pay suck compared what they could make instead? Do the hours suck compared to other options? Does the RCAF provide leadership competent in this particular tactical employment of security forces on land?

That’s not to suggest he’d necessarily be any better, but maybe his perspective is informed by being an RCAF NCM at one of these bases and having a closer view to the ground than some others. All of these can be simultaneously true.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Ok, but is he factually wrong? Does the pay suck compared what they could make instead? Do the hours suck compared to other options? Does the RCAF provide leadership competent in this particular tactical employment of security forces on land?

That’s not to suggest he’d necessarily be any better, but maybe his perspective is informed by being an RCAF NCM at one of these bases and having a closer view to the ground than some others. All of these can be simultaneously true.

Incompetent: not having or showing the necessary skills to do something successfully.

That means that no one has he necessary leadership skills to successfully lead. That’s a broad generalization.

 

[FJAG]

Portage has an Arty Res Battery...and Winnipeg is a stumble/fall/crawl away

Ooooh. I was RSSO of 26Fd (which own 13Fd Bty in Portage) during the mid 70s. I couldn't count on them to man a gun and a recce det during weekend field exercises then. I can't speak for them as of today, but ...

 

[brihard]

Incompetent: not having or showing the necessary skills to do something successfully.

That means that no one has he necessary leadership skills to successfully lead. That’s a broad generalization.

Yeah, it’s a pretty big swipe. Might be worth finding out why that’s his perception of WASF tasks. If the conversation is in part about seeking an organic capability within CAF to improve operational airbase security, and if that may be reflective of at least some NCMs’ perception of that function and how it’s handled now, I’m curious whether there’s fire under the smoke or just one cranky person.

‘Incompetence’ could speak to leadership of people, management of the resources, scheduling etc for the task, or tactical acumen in actually commanding the security mission both routinely and on a Bad Day- or any combination of those three.

@Quirky - you’re one of the dudes on the ground. Care to weigh back in on how WASF is perceived at the level of RCAF NCMs? I’m curious.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Yeah, it’s a pretty big swipe. Might be worth finding out why that’s his perception of WASF tasks. If the conversation is in part about seeking an organic capability within CAF to improve operational airbase security, and if that may be reflective of at least some NCMs’ perception of that function and how it’s handled now, I’m curious whether there’s fire under the smoke or just one cranky person.

‘Incompetence’ could speak to leadership of people, management of the resources, scheduling etc for the task, or tactical acumen in actually commanding the security mission both routinely and on a Bad Day- or any combination of those three.

@Quirky - you’re one of the dudes on the ground. Care to weigh back in on how WASF is perceived at the level of RCAF NCMs? I’m curious.

I am not saying WASF is the way to do security, but saying leadership is incompetent, in our organisation, that’s cowardly if one is not ready to step up. Armchair quarterback and all….

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Back in the early 90s, there were some reservists on Class C doing airfield security in Goose Bay. Wasn’t all local, a buddy of mine was with the Res Van Doo Bn and he did it for a stretch.

 

[quadrapiper]

It's one thing to surge a capability from the reserves during periods of temporary heightened tensions or threats but to look at a full time, continuing capability is simply wrong. Who do they think they are? NDHQ?

That was what I was thinking of, especially given that some possible temporary heightened situations might be ones where the Wing isn't able to afford too many bodies away from their primary duties.

 

[Quirky]

are to weigh back in on how WASF is perceived at the level of RCAF NCMs? I’m curious

Pretty sure it wasn’t on the recruitment brochure on any of the RCAF trades that do it. It’s another one of those secondary duties that MUST BE DONE but since air techs are the largest trade, they are primarily stuck with it, or were, I don’t know how it’s scheduled now.

You know what AMEs do at airlines? They do what they were hired for and that’s fix aircraft. They aren’t put on gate security because the WestJet CEOs didn’t bother with hiring separate staff for it. Leadership doesn’t know how to let things fail, it’s always another duty added to random trades. Base security is one of those things that need to be done by permanent staff, not by techs and clerks. It’s a waste of time, money and skills.

 

[daftandbarmy]

FWIW.... a book on the subject of "ABD" ...

"The case studies highlighted in this chapter demonstrate the complex nature of operating in joint environments, the difficulty of opening and simultaneously defending an expeditionary airfield, and the decisions to address both standoff and penetrating threats. The theme for these studies as well as the historical analysis is the same: ABD missions are difficult, and this air-centric mission requires a highly trained and specialized defense force to ensure success." p.38

https://media.defense.gov/2018/May/23/2001922184/-1/-1/0/B_0136_CAUDILL_DEFENDING_AIR_BASES.PDF

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Pretty sure it wasn’t on the recruitment brochure on any of the RCAF trades that do it. It’s another one of those secondary duties that MUST BE DONE but since air techs are the largest trade, they are primarily stuck with it, or were, I don’t know how it’s scheduled now.

You know what AMEs do at airlines? They do what they were hired for and that’s fix aircraft. They aren’t put on gate security because the WestJet CEOs didn’t bother with hiring separate staff for it. Leadership doesn’t know how to let things fail, it’s always another duty added to random trades. Base security is one of those things that need to be done by permanent staff, not by techs and clerks. It’s a waste of time, money and skills.

Do you work for Westjet?

No, you do not.

Does Westjet face prospect of armed attack?

No, it does not.

Is Westjet an armed force?

No it is not.

Your analogy is terrible.

Maybe somebody forgot to mention it to you, but you belong to the Canadian Armed Forces. I know it is hard for some to understand this, but that makes nearly all of us liable to carry a weapon and do soldierly things, should the situation dictate. Frankly, I am not sure why you still serve with the CAF, given your constant whining here about how bad things are at your workplace and how stupid and incompetent your leadership is.

Back to the matter at hand: Force Protection.

Rather than whine, some of us are actually working behind the scenes to try to change the model to something that works and does not take precious technicians away from fixing aircraft. Even with that said, I cannot guarantee that techs won’t be gunned up while working on aircraft and won’t ever be called upon to defend an airbase, themselves or their comrades from armed attack.

You‘re welcome.

 

[Quirky]

Attitudes like that is why people are leaving the CAF, but keep going.

Rather than whine, some of us are actually working behind the scenes to try to change the model to something that works

So much trust in leadership right now considering the failures in pilot pay and PLD replacements. Lets see what other genius ideas come out of the cubical farms!

 

[brihard]

Do you work for Westjet?

No, you do not.

Does Westjet face prospect of armed attack?

No, it does not.

Is Westjet an armed force?

No it is not.

Your analogy is terrible.

Maybe somebody forgot to mention it to you, but you belong to the Canadian Armed Forces. I know it is hard for some to understand this, but that makes nearly all of us liable to carry a weapon and do soldierly things, should the situation dictate. Frankly, I am not sure why you still serve with the CAF, given your constant whining here about how bad things are at your workplace and how stupid and incompetent your leadership is.

Back to the matter at hand: Force Protection.

Rather than whine, some of us are actually working behind the scenes to try to change the model to something that works and does not take precious technicians away from fixing aircraft. Even with that said, I cannot guarantee that techs won’t be gunned up while working on aircraft and won’t ever be called upon to defend an airbase, themselves or their comrades from armed attack.

You‘re welcome.

There’s a difference between ‘techs might be called upon to defend an airbase, a la Bagram attack, and a model that currently has it built in that techs will be pulled away from maintaining aircraft to do security roles domestically. The former is a shitty reality of war. The later is piss poor planning that fails to make proper use of very specialized and technically capable human resources. Is fleet maintenance and readiness not a constant issue? If so, why is it accepted that techs who want to fix airframes will be pulled away for a task that could much more appropriately and effectively be done otherwise?

Obviously anyone in CAF needs to be able to defend their position if that day ever comes. That’s very different from “well, we’re short resources, so let’s accept squandering the man hours of the people who fix our planes and helicopters”. There has to be a more effective way of doing that.

You can bet your ass that if Westjet did need to provide their own security, they wouldn’t be rotating their maintainers through that role.