Infantry Vehicles

[Kirkhill]

Pluses

Roshel isn’t waiting for support from Ottawa. Just this month, it expanded into more warehouse space to increase its capacity. And after producing more than 200 Senators this year, it is planning to churn out at least 1,000 in 2023.

“It has the same protection class as the Russian Tiger [light armoured vehicle], but the Senator’s armour withstands stronger impact,” Orest told Global News.

Canadian Shield: How Ukrainians are defending their homeland from 8,000 kilometres away | Globalnews.ca

Upstart Canadian manufacturer Roshel is building hundreds of armoured vehicles for Ukraine — and many of its workers are displaced Ukrainians.

globalnews.ca

Minuses

the newly developed Senator is actually designed for law-enforcement and border-patrol use, the company says,

“I think it has very limited utility,” said historian David Bercuson,

The vehicles might be handy for transporting troops in rear areas or evacuating civilians, providing protection at least against shrapnel, if not a direct hit, said Milner, whose background is as an armoured-corps officer.

But, “right off the bat, they’re not a front-line capable vehicle,” he said. “You don’t stick this vehicle anywhere near the front line.” (And yet... Kraken)

The Senators will be helpful for the Ukrainian police and “not so good for the army,” said David Fraser, a retired major general who led Canadian Forces in Afghanistan during the landmark Operation Medusa in Kandahar. “But in war, you take what you have.”

Canadian armoured vehicles arrive in Ukraine but they're not fit for front line, experts say

The newly developed Senator is designed for law-enforcement and border-patrol use, raising questions about how helpful the vehicles will be for Ukrainian forces

nationalpost.com

 

[Prairie canuck]

Another plus is Mattracks already manufactures sets for the F350 and F550....

 

[KevinB]

No variant of the JLTV can mount a section.

If "that" role is a deployable reserve/ light battalion protected mobility section carrier something like the Senator seems to fit very smoothly between the unprotected and underpowered ISV and the capacity inneficient JLTV

I’m of the opinion that if you want protected mobility for the section - then you get a true APC.

This is simply a half assed method that will get people killed for no reason when used in a combat role.

 

[Kirkhill]

I’m of the opinion that if you want protected mobility for the section - then you get a true APC.

This is simply a half assed method that will get people killed for no reason when used in a combat role.

This podcast discusses, among other things, the affordability of the exquisite and warns against platform-centric solutions. Money is better spent on making smart munitions cheap and plentiful and user friendly.

https://soundcloud.com/defaeroreport%2Fdaily-podcast-apr-21-2022cnas-chris-dougherty-on-lesson-from-russia-ukraine-conflict

Which level makes for a "True APC"? Asked the "True Scot".

STANAG 4569 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And when is a lightly armoured Personnel Carrier / Ulitility Vehicle worse than an unarmoured Personnel Carrier / Ultility Vehicle?

Maybe Roshels and CV90s make for a better use of some Defence dollars than a pure LAV fleet. Or even Roshels and Bandvagons.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I’m of the opinion that if you want protected mobility for the section - then you get a true APC.

This is simply a half assed method that will get people killed for no reason when used in a combat role.

What fraction of assed is a glorified dune buggy similarly based on commercial vehicle chassis?

 

[KevinB]

What fraction of assed is a glorified dune buggy similarly based on commercial vehicle chassis?

I will assume you’re talking about the SOCOM GMV 1.1 and/or the Army ISV
The Army couldn’t afford a slew of the GD-OTS Flyer 72’s they bought some off the SOCOM program as an initial capability (and still without some other SOF specific items) until the ISV was fielded (which is based on the Chevy Colorado RS2).

The ISV is strictly mobility platform with no armor package. The GMV 1.1 however has some add on ballistic armor packages for certain situations (SOF raids etc). It’s not an armored vehicle for convoy work or combat movements.

Both were acquired as light weight vehicles to provide enhanced mobility, protection wasn’t part of their original programs.

I’m not a fan of the ISV setup, as it’s not big enough to move a squad effectively, it more of an admin vehicle the way it’s currently supported.

 

[IKnowNothing]

I will assume you’re talking about the SOCOM GMV 1.1 and/or the Army ISV
The Army couldn’t afford a slew of the GD-OTS Flyer 72’s they bought some off the SOCOM program as an initial capability (and still without some other SOF specific items) until the ISV was fielded (which is based on the Chevy Colorado RS2).

The ISV is strictly mobility platform with no armor package.

Both were acquired as light weight vehicles to provide enhanced mobility, protection wasn’t part of their original programs.

I’m not a fan of the ISV setup, as it’s not big enough to move a squad effectively, it more of an admin vehicle the way it’s currently supported.

Refering to the ISV. I may have been misled by my reading, but it seems like the American intent for non-Airborne/Airmobile Light divisions is to be wholly motorized, with the ISV playing a major role in that. Not as a fighting vehicle, but so that Light =/= Leg. Battle taxi that dismounts well well off the objective.

A Senator is big enough to move a squad/section effectively, out of the elements, and protected from small arms and shrapnel.

I don't want to speak for others in the thread, but it seems like Senator is being proposed a safer and more capable ISV (at the cost of higher weight) rather than as a less capable APC.

 

[KevinB]

Refering to the ISV. I may have been misled by my reading, but it seems like the American intent for non-Airborne/Airmobile Light divisions is to be wholly motorized, with the ISV playing a major role in that. Not as a fighting vehicle, but so that Light =/= Leg. Battle taxi that dismounts well well off the objective.

A Senator is big enough to move a squad/section effectively, out of the elements, and protected from small arms and shrapnel.

I don't want to speak for others in the thread, but it seems like Senator is being proposed a safer and more capable ISV (at the cost of higher weight) rather than as a less capable APC.

The ISV's issue comes out of a weight/space requirement for transport down here.
When you look at the ISV - you need to see it as a simply mobility enhancement system for Light Units.
It has no ambitions about protected Mobility - we have Stryker's and Bradley's as well as the AMPV (M113 replacement) for that.

It isn't a combat vehicle and no one has an illusions about that.

 

[Brad Sallows]

When you look at the ISV - you need to see it as a simply mobility enhancement system for Light Units.

Need a Bart Simpson blackboard image for that one.

 

[IKnowNothing]

The ISV's issue comes out of a weight/space requirement for transport down here.
When you look at the ISV - you need to see it as a simply mobility enhancement system for Light Units.
It has no ambitions about protected Mobility - we have Stryker's and Bradley's as well as the AMPV (M113 replacement) for that.

It isn't a combat vehicle and no one has an illusions about that.

Ditto the Senator, with the benefit of not leaving those light units completely exposed to well, everything.

 

[KevinB]

Need a Bart Simpson blackboard image for that one.

I will not use the ISV in Combat...


It is an interesting conundrum, how to blend mobility with protection as needed for the conflicts you face.

Maybe Roshels and CV90s make for a better use of some Defence dollars than a pure LAV fleet. Or even Roshels and Bandvagons.

I think @Kirkhill hits on that point.

You cannot do everything with a Pure LAV 6.0 fleet, it's too heavy for some roles, and not enough for others.

I think for a broad spectrum ability a mix of vehicles is needed.
1) True Tracked Heavy IFV
2) LAV 6.0
3) Light Mobility Vehicle
Plus #4 - an APC be it wheeled or tracked in transport/mobility units to give Protected Mobility to forces or civilians as needed.

 

[KevinB]

Ditto the Senator, with the benefit of not leaving those light units completely exposed to well, everything.

Too heavy to lift with a BlackHawk and dimensions too large to fit in a Hook.
The ISV was spec'd for those roles

 

[IKnowNothing]

Too heavy to lift with a BlackHawk and dimensions too large to fit in a Hook.
The ISV was spec'd for those roles

The phrase (and role) "mobility enhancement for Light Units" is not restricted to the US ISV spec.
For ex. the British use the Ocelot/Foxhound

 

[KevinB]

The phrase (and role) "mobility enhancement for Light Units" is not restricted to the US ISV spec.
For ex. the British use the Ocelot/Foxhound

I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with this sort of vehicle?
It isn't a combat vehicle - 7.62x54R APIT will simply Swiss Cheese it.
Nor is it designed to withstand significant blast.

Ukraine receives hundreds of Senator armored vehicles from Canada

Canadian armored vehicle maker Roshel has delivered a hundred Senator high-tech armoured personnel carriers to Ukrainian Armed Forces. Armoured, troop-carrying vehicles were delivered to Ukraine as part of Ottawa’s military aid to Ukraine and the support of patrons from Eastern Europe. "Roshel...

defence-blog.com

Anti-Personne mines or hand grenades...

 

[IKnowNothing]

I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with this sort of vehicle?
It isn't a combat vehicle - 7.62x54R APIT will simply Swiss Cheese it.
Nor is it designed to withstand significant blast.

Ukraine receives hundreds of Senator armored vehicles from Canada

Canadian armored vehicle maker Roshel has delivered a hundred Senator high-tech armoured personnel carriers to Ukrainian Armed Forces. Armoured, troop-carrying vehicles were delivered to Ukraine as part of Ottawa’s military aid to Ukraine and the support of patrons from Eastern Europe. "Roshel...

defence-blog.com

Anti-Personne mines or hand grenades...

I'd say post 250 sums that up quite nicely. Alternative answer, fill niche 3 in post 251.

Counter question- If LMV allowed for two vehicles, one to provide mobility enhancement under the weight restrictions required to be useful for Airborne/Airmobile, one that is free to be heavier to provide mobility to the non-airborne/airmobile divisions, would the latter also be an open topped, open sided, dune buggy?

In other words, is a baseline level of protection truly completely valueless, or was the complete absence of protection a cost of meeting requirement?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I don't see it replacing the TAPV, the LAV or a Tracked APC/IFV. I see it as a supplement to them and provide some armour without bogging down everything. The reality is that we can't afford enough of the specialised vehicles, which means a lot of the units will have no armour at all.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If it isn't resistant to everything under 0.50, what's the point of the extra weight?

 

[Kirkhill]

Ditto the Senator, with the benefit of not leaving those light units completely exposed to well, everything.

ISV is barely tolerable in the Fort Benning environment - Wet, cold and miserable.

Pick a Canadian location anywhere - and I want a heater.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If it isn't resistant to everything under 0.50, what's the point of the extra weight?

They claim the glass is resistant to .50cal rounds. As I understand it, they will resist 7.62 NATO, their webpage says: vehicle features an armored capsule designed to provide 360-degree ballistic protection up to STANAG Level III/B7 Ballistic Capsule

 

[KevinB]

They claim the glass is resistant to .50cal rounds. As I understand it, they will resist 7.62 NATO, their webpage says: vehicle features an armored capsule designed to provide 360-degree ballistic protection up to STANAG Level III/B7 Ballistic Capsule

FWIW key aspects Up to..
Also STANAG III/B7 have IMHO a fairy unrealistic ammunition threat - and fair hit requirement (rounds need to be X far apart to be considered a fair hit...