Infantry Vehicles

[KevinB]

M113s are getting long in the tooth is they major issue.

Wheels “taxis” have a lot going for them in terms of on road mobility, and also don’t rip up the roads for future use.

Depends on the tracks. Older tracks really did a number on roads. However now the use of track pads limited that aspect, and growsers can be applied for ice as well.

These days most tracked vehicles don’t chew up roads at all, unless the track pads are removed and/or the growsers are left on when running on pavement.

 

[CBH99]

What the base price difference though? Likley this comes in about 1/2 the price of those. Certainly the others are likley more capable, but do you need that level for what we would use them for? I would see them more a replacement for the G wagon.

Just speculating, but I imagine the fuel use would be ridiculously more if they were used in the same roles as the G Wagon?

 

[CBH99]

It’s an armored car. Think more Brinks money moving or Riot control work.

I’d never suggest it for a Military vehicle.

The biggest issue with the TAPV Canada got is the version, the actual system isn’t really bad for some roles, for whatever reason Canada bought the worst version in the line to do anything with.

What version did we buy, compared to other versions available?

(I just need something to Google. Unlike LAV, or Stryker, which opens up the rabbit hole - I don't even know what to type to see the base vehicles the TAPV is based on)

 

[KevinB]

What version did we buy, compared to other versions available?

(I just need something to Google. Unlike LAV, or Stryker, which opens up the rabbit hole - I don't even know what to type to see the base vehicles the TAPV is based on)

It is based on the the M117 ASV, which is a Military Police Convoy Escort Vehicle down here.

Textron Land and Marine Systems Commando® Family of Products
The Canadian variant seems to be a modified version of the Commando Elite - elsewhere pictures of the about have been posted of the Canadian layout.

There are three major variants of the Commando, and 6 sub variants.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I thought Commando Elite was a line of toy soldiers...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Just speculating, but I imagine the fuel use would be ridiculously more if they were used in the same roles as the G Wagon?

Not always, as this truck was designed to have higher gross vehicle weight, so the drivetrain is not struggling with a whole bunch of extra weight that it was not intended for. So you may come out of it with the same fuel consumption for more carrying capacity, as your running the engine at 50-85% instead of 75-95%. also likley to be more stable.

 

[OldSolduer]

I thought Commando Elite was a line of toy soldiers...

It would make a great movie title.

 

[KevinB]

Not always, as this truck was designed to have higher gross vehicle weight, so the drivetrain is not struggling with a whole bunch of extra weight that it was not intended for. So you may come out of it with the same fuel consumption for more carrying capacity, as your running the engine at 50-85% instead of 75-95%. also likley to be more stable.

They are NOT military vehicles.

IF you need an armored vehicle of that role - get a JLTV

Some roles don't need an armored vehicle - but when you do, you need an actual purpose build vehicle, not an adapted commercial truck.

 

[suffolkowner]

The Light Utility Vehicle is looking to replace the Milverado 2500 and the G Wagen with one common platform capable of being uparmoured. I can easily see that being non military probably just another milverado 2500 or 3500

 

[Kirkhill]

JLTV - Oshkosh L-ATV GVWR - 10,200 kg

M113 (Original) - 10,390 kg


Bison (Original) - 12,936 kg
Piranha 8x8 - 12,300 kg
Piranha 6x6 - 10,500 kg
Piranha 4x4 - 7,800 kg
Cadilllac Gage LAV-150 Commando - 9,888 kg
Alvis Saracen - 11,000 kg

10 to 12 tonnes, circa 1960-1990 was the design limit of an APC - an armoured personnel carrier intended for use as a battle taxi which would deliver infanteers with what they could carry to a Form Up Position and then the vehicle would retire - to wait, to act as an ambulance, to carry logistics or to bring in another wave of infanteers.

The APC has gone out of style and 50 tonne infantry carrying light tanks are now the order of the day.

Which has resulted in a whole new category of vehicles being designed - the 10 tonne pickup truck. Those trucks are now doing the duty of the Willys Jeep in most units.

But they are too heavy for general utility so now we have to buy specialist Ultra Light Vehicles like the MRZR4.

If the JLTV is considered "good enough" the what was wrong with original design criteria of all the other vehicles. All that was necessary was that they be properly applied on the battlefield and not used for jobs they were never originally intended.

As to the Bison/Piranha series

There wasn't much to choose between the Mowag Piranha 4x4 and the Cadillac Gage Commando 4x4 - except that the Piranha swapped a miserable driver with his head in the breeze (compared to the comfy CG driver) for a fully accessible hull due to the engine being at the front instead of the rear.

Personally I preferred the Thyssen TM 170 layout - it put the engine at the front, kept the driver and CC under cover at the front with great visibility (and with roof hatches as well) and the entire hull accessible with one rear door and two side doors. (8800 kg empty, 11.650 kg loaded)



Daewoo made an amphibious version - the Barracuda.

 

[IKnowNothing]

They are NOT military vehicles.

IF you need an armored vehicle of that role - get a JLTV

No variant of the JLTV can mount a section.

If "that" role is a deployable reserve/ light battalion protected mobility section carrier something like the Senator seems to fit very smoothly between the unprotected and underpowered ISV and the capacity inneficient JLTV

 

[daftandbarmy]

No variant of the JLTV can mount a section.

If "that" role is a deployable reserve/ light battalion protected mobility section carrier something like the Senator seems to fit very smoothly between the unprotected and underpowered ISV and the capacity inneficient JLTV

Yes, it would be a great fit for the militia. At least it could be serviced more easily locally, I think, unlike a tracked carrier.

I assume the driver training could be done just about anywhere too and, being a wheeled vehicle, might take less time and effort (well out of my lane now! ).

 

[IKnowNothing]

(well out of my lane now! ).

Pfft you have a lane? I just type out of my ass

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Something like the Roshel towing a 120mm mortar on a quick deploy/load trailer would be a quick and budget way of giving the Reserves some firepower and protection. Perhaps even a mortar version using a 81mm on a turntable in the back with roof hatches.

I could also see it for Manpad teams, small unit CP's. Filling a lot of the roles done by soft skins 5/4 tons in the Cold war era. Possibly also good for UAV teams and such.

 

[Kirkhill]

Pfft you have a lane? I just type out of my ass

I've found the strategy effective.

 

[Kirkhill]

Something like the Roshel towing a 120mm mortar on a quick deploy/load trailer would be a quick and budget way of giving the Reserves some firepower and protection. Perhaps even a mortar version using a 81mm on a turntable in the back with roof hatches.

I could also see it for Manpad teams, small unit CP's. Filling a lot of the roles done by soft skins 5/4 tons in the Cold war era. Possibly also good for UAV teams and such.

If they can rig up a 120mm mortar on an ISV they can do the same for the Senator.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Considering 300 are going to Ukraine, I suspect a lot of lessons will be learned in hurry about the design and the improved version will likely be a good buy for us. That would mean that almost all our wheeled armour is domestic and both have export potentiel.

 

[CBH99]

It is based on the the M117 ASV, which is a Military Police Convoy Escort Vehicle down here.

They are NOT military vehicles.

See? The MP's really aren't cops, and they aren't driving military vehicles! Even down there

 

[Kirkhill]

Considering 300 are going to Ukraine, I suspect a lot of lessons will be learned in hurry about the design and the improved version will likely be a good buy for us. That would mean that almost all our wheeled armour is domestic and both have export potentiel.

Another video says Roshel is gearing up to manufacture 1000 in 2023.

 

[CBH99]

Considering 300 are going to Ukraine, I suspect a lot of lessons will be learned in hurry about the design and the improved version will likely be a good buy for us. That would mean that almost all our wheeled armour is domestic and both have export potentiel.

This is starting to make too much sense guys...

Is it a replacement for a LAV w/ a 25mm or 35mm chain gun? Nope.

Leopard that'll blow you out of your socks? Nope.


A domestically produced armoured vehicle based on a commercial design, more easily maintained via commercial dealerships, that would be a boost to the Canadian defence industry (in Toronto of all places!) be useful in several roles like Colin said, and be deployable, AND allow the Reserve force to train with the same kit they'll use? Yupp!


Like I said, this is starting to float into good idea territory... (like actually maybe a good idea, not like the ones floating around NDHQ sometimes)