Infantry Vehicles

[lenaitch]

Fair comments


What does the CAF inventory of people movers look like?

Holdings for local Service Battalion Transport Coys?




View attachment 74484View attachment 74486


And a crated kit to convert bare city buses and school buses to an 18 patient ambulance in 2 hours.

Old school buses converted into ambulances to evacuate nursing homes

Fredericksburg company First Line Tech is assembling kits for the buses to allow nursing homes to be quickly evacuated -- an idea first used after Hurricane Katrina.

www.wusa9.com

View attachment 74487

View attachment 74488

I would really like to see a city transit or school bus gutted and re-fitted in 2 hours. Ok I guess if you have a fleet of old buses lying around already gutted, but if they are that old, how good are they. Back in the '70s, my former police service had a retired school bus. Come the '76 Olympics in Kingston, they had to flatbed it down as they didn't think it would survive the trip on the 401.

The 'Mechano set' type racking might provide cot space but it would be simply a 'scoop and run' situation; no power to run any medical or diagnostic gear.

The last two images are complete build-outs.

 

[KevinB]

My starting point is a commercial vehicle with a powerful engine, good transmission, great suspension and adjustable ride height.

Actual dimensions and furnishings TBD.

A winch required.

Skip the adjustable ride height - just get it with enough ground clearance stock-- the adjustable ride height from GM etc is an air suspension - and if you start needing to really kick it, you can have some serious complications.

I hadn't seen the AGMV before, but it certainly looks interesting. My thinking on the ISV and potential ZR2 2500 was more that GM has massive parts stores, and a supply chain capable of supporting a production of tens of thousands of units a year already.

I mentioned in a different thread, maybe this one, to my mind two vehicles per section seems more reasonable. It keeps the vehicle light, and small for off-road. I was thinking the 2500 based vehicle more for support functions that may need a heavier vehicle, but not needing something on the scale of a MSVS.

The 2500 would be a fair support vehicle - for a CQ, maybe a Pl Weapon Det - and a Mortar vehicle.
Admittedly the Hummer is a significantly better vehicle for that role...

 

[FJAG]

The US Army ISV is based off the ZR2 Colorado (basically the off-road version).
For 4-5 folks it’s fantastic, it’s an overburdened pig at 9-10.

Interesting issue. I just looked at the Ford series for the fun of it.

I estimated a soldier and his gear come in at roughly 150kg. For the F350 SRW (single rear wheels) version you are challenging the payload of roughly 2,000 kg but with the F350 DRW (dual rear wheels) the payload goes up to 3,000 kg for roughly the same truck (That generalized. There are lots of variations based on configuration). Duallys seem to make a difference for ho much you can carry. Obviously the powertrain will also make a big difference as to how well you can haul it around.

I don't think that I've ever seen a "light" military truck with duals. Even our deuces in the distant past were single wheels on dual rear axles.

 

[Kirkhill]

RPG Barrage - skooting in pickup trucks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/yeyvxi

 

[KevinB]

Interesting issue. I just looked at the Ford series for the fun of it.


I don't think that I've ever seen a "light" military truck with duals. Even our deuces in the distant past were single wheels on dual rear axles.

You cannot lower pressure on duals.
The tires rub, then fail at the sidewall. So sand, etc isn’t ideal. Plus changing the inner tire is a serious piece of work. I’d never opt for a dually for .Mil work. The best part of the M35 CDN (MLVW) was ditching the US Army M35 dual rears.

 

[GR66]

Well played...

My point was more that as someone who has stayed at a Holiday Inn watching YouTube videos of historians discussing WWII vehicles, one recurring theme was that nations tended to be best served by vehicles that used parts already in production for civilian pattern vehicles, like the Renault AH(x).

Pure military SMP vehicles are cooler and more capable, but I strongly suspect they tend to be harder to make/sustain over the span of a peer-on-peer war. If we can find an 90% solution that is based on commercial parts, we are setting ourselves up for greater success in the event we need more than 600 of them.

One problem is we look at civilian pattern vehicles from a North American point of view. Lots of GM parts available from dealers in Canada and the US...Mali? Afghanistan? Latvia?

For the Army probably the best way to make sure there are lots of "local" parts available wherever we deploy is to use the same vehicle as the US Army. They have the supply chain and scale that we'll need and it follows them wherever they deploy.

 

[KevinB]

One problem is we look at civilian pattern vehicles from a North American point of view. Lots of GM parts available from dealers in Canada and the US...Mali? Afghanistan? Latvia?

For the Army probably the best way to make sure there are lots of "local" parts available wherever we deploy is to use the same vehicle as the US Army. They have the supply chain and scale that we'll need and it follows them wherever they deploy.

110%
The main reason why I push US MOTS (Military Off The Shelf) items for Canada is ease of supply chain.

 

[OldSolduer]

The US Army ISV is based off the ZR2 Colorado (basically the off-road version).
For 4-5 folks it’s fantastic, it’s an overburdened pig at 9-10.

I keep telling people small underpowered vehicles are ridiculous in the military context. Then people want to uparmor it to make it worse.

Get a full size 2500 chassis (the Big Three can do this - stay North American please) and adapt it to military requirements.
Make it simple to maintain and use.
Get rid of unnecessary features that will break at the most inopportune times.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Deuce came in two versions (well more, but two basic versions) The single wheel on dual rear axles and double wheel on two rear axles. The problem with the single wheel version was that the wheel well protruded into the rear load bed, making carrying of pallets difficult. The dual version had a flat bed and you could get 6 pallets of 105mm artillery ammunition into it.

 

[Kirkhill]

The Aussies have always preferred 6x6 over Duallies.



This is a Hennessey variant of the Silverado.

2019 Chevrolet Silverado-based Hennessey Goliath 6x6 - Eagle Ridge GM

The 2019 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 is barely in showrooms and yet there’s already development plans for a modified version of it. American tuner Hennessey Performance has recently released images and specs of the upcoming Goliath 6×6 based off the 2019 Chevy Silverado 1500 Trail Boss model. The...

www.eagleridgegm.com

 

[KevinB]

The Aussies have always preferred 6x6 over Duallies.

View attachment 74492

This is a Hennessey variant of the Silverado.

View attachment 74493

2019 Chevrolet Silverado-based Hennessey Goliath 6x6 - Eagle Ridge GM

The 2019 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 is barely in showrooms and yet there’s already development plans for a modified version of it. American tuner Hennessey Performance has recently released images and specs of the upcoming Goliath 6×6 based off the 2019 Chevy Silverado 1500 Trail Boss model. The...

www.eagleridgegm.com

The 6x6 makes so much more sense than the Dual.

 

[FJAG]

110%
The main reason why I push US MOTS (Military Off The Shelf) items for Canada is ease of supply chain.

That's my view too. And we should tie our own industries into that chain to a) build locally, b) sustain locally and c) become a trusted supplier to the US a la General Dynamics.

The Aussies have always preferred 6x6 over Duallies.

That's because of these:

Land Rover Perentie - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

That's my view too. And we should tie our own industries into that chain to a) build locally, b) sustain locally and c) become a trusted supplier to the US a la General Dynamics.


That's because of these:

Which have given way to these

 

[Furniture]

One problem is we look at civilian pattern vehicles from a North American point of view. Lots of GM parts available from dealers in Canada and the US...Mali? Afghanistan? Latvia?

For the Army probably the best way to make sure there are lots of "local" parts available wherever we deploy is to use the same vehicle as the US Army. They have the supply chain and scale that we'll need and it follows them wherever they deploy.

I wasn't suggesting a civilian pattern vehicle, I was suggesting something akin to the ISV. That is, something that has a large degree of parts compatibility with civilian pattern vehicles. Tried, tested, commonly available parts that car manufacturers are already making in huge numbers and stockpiling for their own purposes.

Also, the intent wouldn't be to buy parts locally. The idea being, the parts are mostly made in fortress North America, so even in a total war across Europe or Asia, our factories here would already be spun-up to make the parts needed, and mostly safe from the fighting.

I agree that we should be using what the USA does, mostly because we can as @FJAG suggests and become part of the production process for both our own, and the US Army's vehicles.

 

[Kirkhill]

I wasn't suggesting a civilian pattern vehicle, I was suggesting something akin to the ISV. That is, something that has a large degree of parts compatibility with civilian pattern vehicles. Tried, tested, commonly available parts that car manufacturers are already making in huge numbers and stockpiling for their own purposes.

Also, the intent wouldn't be to buy parts locally. The idea being, the parts are mostly made in fortress North America, so even in a total war across Europe or Asia, our factories here would already be spun-up to make the parts needed, and mostly safe from the fighting.

I agree that we should be using what the USA does, mostly because we can as @FJAG suggests and become part of the production process for both our own, and the US Army's vehicles.

Which is why I think GM Defense is on to something.

Since the Jeep was replaced with the Hummer there has been a growing divide between the US defense industry and the civilian market.

The Jeep, like the Land Rover, the G-Wagen and Toyota were all cross-over vehicles that maintained a large production base by appealing to the civilian market and supplied, as a result, a cheap and useful utility vehicle that dominated the military world.

The HMMWV was an explicitly military vehicle that had limited appeal to the civilian world.

Since the HMMWV is being replaced by the JLTV there is no civilian cross-over.

Meanwhile the Land Rover, the G-Wagon and the Toyota are all still in use with other militaries. Even Jeeps find homes. The Civvy Pickup truck seems to find utility by all sorts of people wanting to transport weapons, ammunition and people - The Ukrainians, a most irregular army, joins all the other irregulars around the world demonstrating that tactics are at least as important as equipment.

GM is exploiting their commercial Silverado and Colorado lines. They can extend that to their Suburban, Yukon and Blazer lines to create Unarmoured Light Utility Vehicles. Ford and Dodge would be in a position to offer those same types of vehicles, competing with Toyota, Land Rover and Mercedes internationally.

The issue is not so much the ability of vehicle suppliers to provide cost effective (cheap) transport. It is the willingness of militaries to employ them.

Edit - What is the availability of Mercedes, Land Rover or Toyota parts in Ouagadougou like?

 

[KevinB]

Which is why I think GM Defense is on to something.

Since the Jeep was replaced with the Hummer there has been a growing divide between the US defense industry and the civilian market.

The Jeep, like the Land Rover, the G-Wagen and Toyota were all cross-over vehicles that maintained a large production base by appealing to the civilian market and supplied, as a result, a cheap and useful utility vehicle that dominated the military world.

The HMMWV was an explicitly military vehicle that had limited appeal to the civilian world.

Since the HMMWV is being replaced by the JLTV there is no civilian cross-over.

Meanwhile the Land Rover, the G-Wagon and the Toyota are all still in use with other militaries. Even Jeeps find homes. The Civvy Pickup truck seems to find utility by all sorts of people wanting to transport weapons, ammunition and people - The Ukrainians, a most irregular army, joins all the other irregulars around the world demonstrating that tactics are at least as important as equipment.

I also put that into the beggars can’t be choosers category…

GM is exploiting their commercial Silverado and Colorado lines. They can extend that to their Suburban, Yukon and Blazer lines to create Unarmoured Light Utility Vehicles. Ford and Dodge would be in a position to offer those same types of vehicles, competing with Toyota, Land Rover and Mercedes internationally.

They aren’t really COTS systems as they run 24V power as well, unlike their commercial siblings.

The issue is not so much the ability of vehicle suppliers to provide cost effective (cheap) transport. It is the willingness of militaries to employ them.

The value of the dollar and tariffs on American vehicles means that most non NA Militaries would pay a fortune for a NA Pickup truck.
They also don’t have the same reputation for reliability, given few NA Automotive companies compete their vehicles in endurance races.

Edit - What is the availability of Mercedes, Land Rover or Toyota parts in Ouagadougou like?

Slim to nil in most areas these days. Land Rover dried up in Africa after the apartheid days, Mercedes and Toyota are fairly reliable in some countries - while non existent in others.

 

[Kirkhill]

I also put that into the beggars can’t be choosers category…

The Beggars seem to be doing not badly these days.

Kind of like their maritime forebears. The power base for the Dutch, for the House of Orange and the Protestant Ascendancy. The Spanish Tercios of the Holy Roman Empire struggled - and Spain went broke.

Sea Beggars | Dutch rebels

Other articles where Sea Beggars is discussed: Dordrecht: …it was captured by the Sea Beggars (Netherlands rebels against Spain) and was the scene of the first assembly of the United Provinces. It was the seat (1618–19) of the important Synod of Dort, an international assembly of the Reformed...

www.britannica.com

They aren’t really COTS systems as they run 24V power as well, unlike their commercial siblings.

Mods are possible

12v Vs. 24v Vs. 36v Batteries and Different Vehicle systems | Elreg

Learn more about 12v, 24v and 36v batteries. Their differences, usages and the kind of vehicles they work on like diesel trucks and cars.

www.elreg.com

Just like mods to suspension, shocks, body-work, wheels (6x6 instead of four)

Site Maintenance

The value of the dollar and tariffs on American vehicles means that most non NA Militaries would pay a fortune for a NA Pickup truck.
They also don’t have the same reputation for reliability, given few NA Automotive companies compete their vehicles in endurance races.

Unless, as in the Ukrainian case, the need was deemed dire enough that the government dropped all tariffs on imports.

Slim to nil in most areas these days. Land Rover dried up in Africa after the apartheid days, Mercedes and Toyota are fairly reliable in some countries - while non existent in others.

My point exactly. The real issue is how fast and how cheaply can you replace battle damage. And that depends more on speed of manufacture and shipping and available inventory at source.

Why would you repair a rifle if a working rifle is immediately available to replace your broken one?

 

[ueo]

The Beggars seem to be doing not badly these days.

Kind of like their maritime forebears. The power base for the Dutch, for the House of Orange and the Protestant Ascendancy. The Spanish Tercios of the Holy Roman Empire struggled - and Spain went broke.

Sea Beggars | Dutch rebels

Other articles where Sea Beggars is discussed: Dordrecht: …it was captured by the Sea Beggars (Netherlands rebels against Spain) and was the scene of the first assembly of the United Provinces. It was the seat (1618–19) of the important Synod of Dort, an international assembly of the Reformed...

www.britannica.com

Mods are possible

12v Vs. 24v Vs. 36v Batteries and Different Vehicle systems | Elreg

Learn more about 12v, 24v and 36v batteries. Their differences, usages and the kind of vehicles they work on like diesel trucks and cars.

www.elreg.com

Just like mods to suspension, shocks, body-work, wheels (6x6 instead of four)

Site Maintenance

Unless, as in the Ukrainian case, the need was deemed dire enough that the government dropped all tariffs on imports.



My point exactly. The real issue is how fast and how cheaply can you replace battle damage. And that depends more on speed of manufacture and shipping and available inventory at source.

Why would you repair a rifle if a working rifle is immediately available to replace your broken one?

Lets get Diesel Dave and his band of happy campers to do the initial design etc, If it craps out they can always crash/give it away.

 

[Kirkhill]

Lets get Diesel Dave and his band of happy campers to do the initial design etc, If it craps out they can always crash/give it away.

Some people would call that proto-typing. Others, simply, experimentation.

 

[Kirkhill]

Russkis in the market.

Ukraine: Russian mobilised troops complain about lack of vehicles

Audio shows Russian mobilised troops complaining about their lack of military vehicles in Ukraine.

cdn.jwplayer.com