Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[Kirkhill]

What’s being lost here is that we simply do not have the established numbers, even when full, to fill out these units. We rob the Bns to deploy a single company, and used to have to rob every unit in a Bde to deploy a BG. Ending the farce of being able to man these units is, in my mind, a good thing.

Also while I appreciate that we have doctrine, the Inf BN in Operations still talks about four rifle companies and an AT coy, so let’s not pretend it’s this up to date, we’ll thought out plan.


Right but my point is that this should be the norm of operations. The Rocky Mountain Rangers and BCRs are going to get a lot more value out of 2 full days in a weekend massed then 4 week days of being less than a section. I’d add that this would also allow us to recruit multiple trades across smaller centres.

Mark, you're not wrong in your point but the logistics continue to get in the way.

Where is the massing going to occur?
Do the troops use PMVs to get to the training point?
Do you lay on DND transport to pick them up at the armouries?
Time to reach the training ground?
Time to return?

My personal experience is that even a well-executed, planned weekend (Calgary-Waiwright or Calgary-Suffield - moved by military bus, pmv, unit transport (AVGPs) or on one glorious occasion CH-47D) resulted in the following.

Gather at 17:00 - 19:00 of Friday with kit issue.
Depart circa 19:00
Arrive circa 24:00, find quarters and doss down.

Saturday
Wake up call at 04:00 (Thanks for Armageddon Corporal Rodgers)
Settle down ex reg-sergeant who returned from visiting mates on base at 03:30
Clean up quarters
Report to mess for breakfast
On to the ranges and establish butts
First round down range at 08:00

Alternate Saturday
Start digging section L trenches at Suffield with pick and shovel - after a day of digging generate two shell scrapes and one L trench excavated to the hard pan (3 foot depth) with no further progress possible. Section sleeps under a lean to of two shelter halves held up by the two shovels that were issued to you. Shovels used as tent poles. This being Suffield and no lone pines let alone forests or scrub to rig shelters.

Squeeze in additional activities as possible.

Sunday

Training from first light to mid day. With breakfast and lunch. Pack up and stow. Leave no later than 14:00. Return to armouries. Clean and turn in kit.

Dismiss 18:00 on Sunday and hope that all your dead beat, sleep deprived kids make it home safe once they leave the armouries.


(Thanks for the trip down memory lane)

The common situation is that Canada is big. Until that fact is faced by all parties then we will continue to apply other nation's solutions in a place where those solutions can not work.

The first consideration about any activity in Canada is that it takes more time, more space, more energy and more money than anywhere else in the Western World. Even the Aussies don't have the same problems because they don't have to keep warm.

If we want to hold onto the entirety of the United States with a population the size of, and with the political proclivities of, California, then it is going to cost each of us a lot of money.

 

[Kirkhill]

PS

On one grand occasion I discovered, on arrival at the training area circa 22:00, that I had been designated OPI for the weekend and I was responsible for having the unit (platoon sized), up, washed, barracks cleaned, breakfast organized along with box lunches, transport found, troops delivered to the ranges, butts party created, butts established and manned for the day with first round down range at 08:00.

To my personal satisfaction it was a good, safe day at the ranges.

 

[markppcli]

I prefer that schedule to arrive at armoured at 1830, get changed. Form up for roll call / parade at 1900 because the CO wants to see his “regiment” finish that at 1930. Draw weapons / required kit and set up for training 2030 if your lucky. Training for an hour till it’s time to return kit and be dismissed to the mess at 2145. 3 paid hours for 1:15-1:30 of actually productive time.

Reimagine armoured as training centres, most are actually big enough to take a full company. Troops can drive themselves from their homes. There is no more “regimental armoury,” you report to a train at the regional depot or training centre. If you are unable to drive it’s on you to secure transport; this is a job just like any other, subway doesn’t subsidize its sandwich artists getting to work it’s just expected. We ought to be the same.

 

[dapaterson]

I'm always impressed with the desire to wring every available second out of a reserve half-day paysheet (that's 92.8% of 1/14 of a Reg F week of pay.

 

[MilEME09]

Mark, you're not wrong in your point but the logistics continue to get in the way.

Where is the massing going to occur?
Do the troops use PMVs to get to the training point?
Do you lay on DND transport to pick them up at the armouries?
Time to reach the training ground?
Time to return?

My personal experience is that even a well-executed, planned weekend (Calgary-Waiwright or Calgary-Suffield - moved by military bus, pmv, unit transport (AVGPs) or on one glorious occasion CH-47D) resulted in the following.

Gather at 17:00 - 19:00 of Friday with kit issue.
Depart circa 19:00
Arrive circa 24:00, find quarters and doss down.

Saturday
Wake up call at 04:00 (Thanks for Armageddon Corporal Rodgers)
Settle down ex reg-sergeant who returned from visiting mates on base at 03:30
Clean up quarters
Report to mess for breakfast
On to the ranges and establish butts
First round down range at 08:00

Alternate Saturday
Start digging section L trenches at Suffield with pick and shovel - after a day of digging generate two shell scrapes and one L trench excavated to the hard pan (3 foot depth) with no further progress possible. Section sleeps under a lean to of two shelter halves held up by the two shovels that were issued to you. Shovels used as tent poles. This being Suffield and no lone pines let alone forests or scrub to rig shelters.

Squeeze in additional activities as possible.

Sunday

Training from first light to mid day. With breakfast and lunch. Pack up and stow. Leave no later than 14:00. Return to armouries. Clean and turn in kit.

Dismiss 18:00 on Sunday and hope that all your dead beat, sleep deprived kids make it home safe once they leave the armouries.


(Thanks for the trip down memory lane)

The common situation is that Canada is big. Until that fact is faced by all parties then we will continue to apply other nation's solutions in a place where those solutions can not work.

The first consideration about any activity in Canada is that it takes more time, more space, more energy and more money than anywhere else in the Western World. Even the Aussies don't have the same problems because they don't have to keep warm.

If we want to hold onto the entirety of the United States with a population the size of, and with the political proclivities of, California, then it is going to cost each of us a lot of money.

Sounds about right though in recent memory MSE safety has being coming down harder on making sure drivers have 8 hours of rest. So I've seen later starts on Sundays, but and this may just be my CoC, a strong desire to leave Wainwright by no later than 1100 to get back to Calgary. There are ways to make things quicker, advance party getting everything set up prior to, orders prior to Friday night so it's literally arrive and get on the bus and go, etc.... where I usually see things fall apart is when we hit the ground Saturday morning timings go out the window because people start wanting to do things their "faster" way instead of the army way, and we loose time. I've had ranges many times where we arrive at 0800 but rounds aren't down range till 10 or 1100, then more delays as serials go on.

 

[markppcli]

I'm always impressed with the desire to wring every available second out of a reserve half-day paysheet (that's 92.8% of 1/14 of a Reg F week of pay.

Well I remember my reserve time, a decade ago now, and I seem to recall a great many parade nights where I achieved fuck all beyond making about 80% of my my mess bar tab. While that was all fun and what not, I’m not sure it really contributed to the defence of Canada in any meaningful way.

 

[dapaterson]

There is a need to properly use the training time; a properly planned evening should let four 40 minute periods of instruction be delivered / 2.5 hours of stables or prep for an upcoming exercise or cleanup after a recent exercise.

It should not be "Shit, it's 1855, quick, someone figure out what we're doing."

 

[MilEME09]

There is a need to properly use the training time; a properly planned evening should let four 40 minute periods of instruction be delivered / 2.5 hours of stables or prep for an upcoming exercise or cleanup after a recent exercise.

It should not be "Shit, it's 1855, quick, someone figure out what we're doing."

Oh I've had it where it's "ex prep" for convoy ops, I have 50+ troops show up so all the work gets done in a hour. Meanwhile the chain is in an O group 2/3 of the night so deliver an ad hoc lecture on the fly.

 

[Kirkhill]

There is a need to properly use the training time; a properly planned evening should let four 40 minute periods of instruction be delivered / 2.5 hours of stables or prep for an upcoming exercise or cleanup after a recent exercise.

It should not be "Shit, it's 1855, quick, someone figure out what we're doing."

Or one memorable occasion in Regina when the juniorest of junior subbies was tasked to oversee training of recruits. At circa 09:00 on a Saturday morning he discovered that his assigned Master Corporal Instructors, after a night in the JRs, had decided they didn't like their new master and took it upon themselves to "mutiny" and failed to parade the next morning. The CO was all over the OC. The OC was all over the Subbie. The Subbie was in tears trying to figure out how to conduct classes for recruits, iaw CO's instructions, when he hadn't received recruit training himself. OC then grabs me and tells me to sort out the Subbie. PS I was the experienced MITCP Subbie with 3 years of Militia service in Calgary.

The Master Corporals continued to fail to work for the Subbie. The recruits lost out. The regiment lost the recruits and the Subbie. The Master Corporals continued to drink in the JRs, parading when, and for whom, they liked. No disciplinary measures of any sort at any time.

 

[MilEME09]

The Master Corporals continued to fail to work for the Subbie. The recruits lost out. The regiment lost the recruits and the Subbie. The Master Corporals continued to drink in the JRs, parading when, and for whom, they liked. No disciplinary measures of any sort at any time.

There is part of the problem, an unwillingness to use administrative and disciplinary measure. I cannot tell you how many times I haven't been allowed to write up a soldier formally because "we don't want to hurt the members career", to which my response always is if they didn't want to ruin their career then they should not of done XYZ.

 

[markppcli]

There is a need to properly use the training time; a properly planned evening should let four 40 minute periods of instruction be delivered / 2.5 hours of stables or prep for an upcoming exercise or cleanup after a recent exercise.

It should not be "Shit, it's 1855, quick, someone figure out what we're doing."

4x40 = 160 minutes out 180 total minutes, so no breaks if you have any kind of roll call / form up / see who’s doing what, who’s squeezing out time now?. Further when do you instructors prep these classes / set up for them? This is the problem with 3 hours a week, and why I’m much more in favour of having two 8 hour days, hell you could push that if you need to, where training can be conducted in much more meaningful way.

Lastly I’d say if your weekly parade night is a two and a half hours of lectures or cleaning your going to start seeing a serious drop in interest. Most of these jobs need hands in the tools.

 

[Mortar guy]

How many PYs is the infantry losing?

As best I can tell from my ACIMS recce and phone calls - about 1000 PYs. But, as you may know, no one has any granularity on the exact PY distribution yet.

 

[dapaterson]

Again, it comes down to planning ahead. Obviously instructors should be told weeks or months in advance, and given paid time to prepare. And "instruction" does not mean "death by PowerPoint or OHP"; one classroom session followed by two hours of practicing skills - patrol formations on the parade square? Setting up and pulling down tents in the parking lot? Or any number of other skills practice / refresher type activities.

There should be deliberate planning, sequencing training leading up to exercises, prepping equipment for exercises...

And frankly, keeping equipment clean and serviceable is a key part of being a soldier. And a leadership responsibility to instil in their troops.

 

[Mortar guy]

What’s being lost here is that we simply do not have the established numbers, even when full, to fill out these units.

I remember talking to a hydrologist in Afghanistan who told me "Afghanistan doesn't have a water shortage problem, it has a water distribution problem." The CA is sort of the same - fully 20% of those who wear the Army DEU serve outside the CA - mostly in bloated bureaucracies in Ottawa. As many have said here, we have far too many HQs in the CA for the force we have. I have often said that the CAF has not encountered a problem since 9/11 that has not required a larger HQ to solve. We have consistently hollowed out our Army so we can grow obscenely large HQs like CJOC, or so we can build CCSB, or whatever. If the CAF were really interested in filling out hollow units, they could do so next APS. I promise you: you could take 1000 PYs out of our 22 L1 HQs and no one outside Ottawa would notice. What's more, most in the L1s wouldn't notice!

 

[MilEME09]

I remember talking to a hydrologist in Afghanistan who told me "Afghanistan doesn't have a water shortage problem, it has a water distribution problem." The CA is sort of the same - fully 20% of those who wear the Army DEU serve outside the CA - mostly in bloated bureaucracies in Ottawa. As many have said here, we have far too many HQs in the CA for the force we have. I have often said that the CAF has not encountered a problem since 9/11 that has not required a larger HQ to solve. We have consistently hollowed out our Army so we can grow obscenely large HQs like CJOC, or so we can build CCSB, or whatever. If the CAF were really interested in filling out hollow units, they could do so next APS. I promise you: you could take 1000 PYs out of our 22 L1 HQs and no one outside Ottawa would notice. What's more, most in the L1s wouldn't notice!

The fact we have 22 L1s, shoes how bloated we are

 

[markppcli]

I remember talking to a hydrologist in Afghanistan who told me "Afghanistan doesn't have a water shortage problem, it has a water distribution problem." The CA is sort of the same - fully 20% of those who wear the Army DEU serve outside the CA - mostly in bloated bureaucracies in Ottawa. As many have said here, we have far too many HQs in the CA for the force we have. I have often said that the CAF has not encountered a problem since 9/11 that has not required a larger HQ to solve. We have consistently hollowed out our Army so we can grow obscenely large HQs like CJOC, or so we can build CCSB, or whatever. If the CAF were really interested in filling out hollow units, they could do so next APS. I promise you: you could take 1000 PYs out of our 22 L1 HQs and no one outside Ottawa would notice. What's more, most in the L1s wouldn't notice!

I don’t disagree, but 2025 is a short term solution, and this is PY neutral. My understanding if CMTC is dead, so let’s all be happy for small miracles.

 

[dapaterson]

The fact we have 22 L1s, shoes how bloated we are

There are both CAF L1s, and DND L1s. While some could be removed easily, other fulfil different requirements. So, for example, merge DIA and IM, but remove the military sigs functions from IM and place them into CJOC. Take the '2 function, Int Command, and make them the CAF '2, again under CJOC. Voila. With minimal effort, I killed off two L2s.

The integrated HQ has been somewhat disastrous, with unnecessary military GOFOs infesting the Department. The lack of CAF trust of non-uniformed personnel is extremely problematic, and drives much of the current problem space... and creates issues where generalist officers get posted into jobs requiring specific knowledge that they lack.

 

[markppcli]

Again, it comes down to planning ahead. Obviously instructors should be told weeks or months in advance, and given paid time to prepare. And "instruction" does not mean "death by PowerPoint or OHP"; one classroom session followed by two hours of practicing skills - patrol formations on the parade square? Setting up and pulling down tents in the parking lot? Or any number of other skills practice / refresher type activities.

There should be deliberate planning, sequencing training leading up to exercises, prepping equipment for exercises...

And frankly, keeping equipment clean and serviceable is a key part of being a soldier. And a leadership responsibility to instil in their troops.

Yes keeping equipment clean is important; but brining in guys to clean for 2.5 hours for the sake of it is a waste of class a days. I accept that I’m probably reading far to much into what was more likely an off hand remark.

I maintain that admin time eats up far to much time when you parade for 3 hours at a time. One weekend has the same amount of time spent drawing weapons, cleaning the armoury, ect as a single parade night with far more available training time. Again 16 for the cost of 12.

 

[Kirkhill]

There are both CAF L1s, and DND L1s. While some could be removed easily, other fulfil different requirements. So, for example, merge DIA and IM, but remove the military sigs functions from IM and place them into CJOC. Take the '2 function, Int Command, and make them the CAF '2, again under CJOC. Voila. With minimal effort, I killed off two L2s.

The integrated HQ has been somewhat disastrous, with unnecessary military GOFOs infesting the Department. The lack of CAF trust of non-uniformed personnel is extremely problematic, and drives much of the current problem space... and creates issues where generalist officers get posted into jobs requiring specific knowledge that they lack.

This is the other side to the L1 discussions.

More often than not the L1 is not driven by the need to create a position for someone to fill. It is driven by the need to find someone to supply a capability. As I have said before the problem is not unique to the military. It is the problem that all small to medium businesses encounter.

Every business needs to work legally. One lawyer doesn't get it done though because almost every required activity is heavily regulated at municipal, provincial, national and international levels, often with commercial conventions being required as well.

You need to find money and spend money and track money.
You need to find people, train them and retain them, discipline them and release them, and manage continuing obligations
Buildings, Machinery, Consummables, Material.
Operations, Maintenance, Logistics, Relations.

The point is that in a complex world you need a lot of SMEs. Some of them are worth their keep. The best of them talk to their associates.

The worst of them live in splendid isolation within their own empires.

 

[MilEME09]

Yes keeping equipment clean is important; but brining in guys to clean for 2.5 hours for the sake of it is a waste of class a days. I accept that I’m probably reading far to much into what was more likely an off hand remark.

I maintain that admin time eats up far to much time when you parade for 3 hours at a time. One weekend has the same amount of time spent drawing weapons, cleaning the armoury, ect as a single parade night with far more available training time. Again 16 for the cost of 12.

Being that we have to cram a lot into a weekend, I'd argue on a Saturday if staying in garrison, we should go till 8 or 9pm, have the unit provide dinner. Nothing says it has to be an 8 hour day.