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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

Yes keeping equipment clean is important; but brining in guys to clean for 2.5 hours for the sake of it is a waste of class a days. I accept that I’m probably reading far to much into what was more likely an off hand remark.

I maintain that admin time eats up far to much time when you parade for 3 hours at a time. One weekend has the same amount of time spent drawing weapons, cleaning the armoury, ect as a single parade night with far more available training time. Again 16 for the cost of 12.

Cleaning kit is a learning experience. It builds familiarity with the gear, the critical components, how it can be manipulated, what needs to be serviced, what needs to be replaced. It builds muscle memory.

Cleaning is not a punishment. It is a critical component in any process. It returns the equipment to a fully functional state so that it can be reused.

So, no, I don't think bringing guys in for 2.5 hours of Class A service is a waste. It is often the primary opportunity for the militia troops to become familiar with the tools of the trade available to them in the armoury.
 
So, no, I don't think bringing guys in for 2.5 hours of Class A service is a waste. It is often the primary opportunity for the militia troops to become familiar with the tools of the trade available to them in the armoury.
It's only a problem if that's the only thing the troops end up doing, which shows a lack of planning and leadership
 
Cleaning kit is a learning experience. It builds familiarity with the gear, the critical components, how it can be manipulated, what needs to be serviced, what needs to be replaced. It builds muscle memory.

Cleaning is not a punishment. It is a critical component in any process. It returns the equipment to a fully functional state so that it can be reused.

So, no, I don't think bringing guys in for 2.5 hours of Class A service is a waste. It is often the primary opportunity for the militia troops to become familiar with the tools of the trade available to them in the armoury.
If all you can think of for a weekly training even is cleaning, I would recommend you need some PD. Cleaning car of course be part of it but have it happen after some training, of some kind, be that class room or practical.
 
The integrated HQ has been somewhat disastrous, with unnecessary military GOFOs infesting the Department.
Oops…I mean integration of CAFCOM and DND was supposed to make those generals/admirals more like their civilian counterparts. You mean they weren’t completely subsumed into the bureaucracy? 😆

Maybe the United Federation came back in time and observed early-21st Century Canadian Defence to gain insight on how to vanquish the Borg? 🤔
 
Yes keeping equipment clean is important; but brining in guys to clean for 2.5 hours for the sake of it is a waste of class a days. I accept that I’m probably reading far to much into what was more likely an off hand remark.

I maintain that admin time eats up far to much time when you parade for 3 hours at a time. One weekend has the same amount of time spent drawing weapons, cleaning the armoury, ect as a single parade night with far more available training time. Again 16 for the cost of 12.
The unit I was with in the Reserve was lucky because our training parade night was Friday. So out of the four Fridays a month one was taken up loading vehicles and road moving to a training area for an exercise. In the other three, one would be boring stuff- practice putting up tents/penthouses/cleaning weapons/parade practice. One would be post-ex maint, the other two would be something like .22 subcal range in another units armoury, or professional development- operators working with techs, tel troop going to remote location and doing a line check, rad troop using the stationary HF set to talk somewhere else in the world. Sometimes a CO's parade at another armoury with a drill hall that the unit could actually form up in (usually Regt d'Hull).

All of this could be accomplished in 3-4 hours and only a bit was cleaning and drill. Morale was generally high and considering we were a Sigs unit that's saying a lot :p

Followed by more morale building in the Byward Market and Hull.
 
The unit I was with in the Reserve was lucky because our training parade night was Friday. So out of the four Fridays a month one was taken up loading vehicles and road moving to a training area for an exercise. In the other three, one would be boring stuff- practice putting up tents/penthouses/cleaning weapons/parade practice. One would be post-ex maint, the other two would be something like .22 subcal range in another units armoury, or professional development- operators working with techs, tel troop going to remote location and doing a line check, rad troop using the stationary HF set to talk somewhere else in the world. Sometimes a CO's parade at another armoury with a drill hall that the unit could actually form up in (usually Regt d'Hull).

All of this could be accomplished in 3-4 hours and only a bit was cleaning and drill. Morale was generally high and considering we were a Sigs unit that's saying a lot :p

Followed by more morale building in the Byward Market and Hull.
Only a signaller would look forward to spending Friday night practicing radio procedure.
 
As best I can tell from my ACIMS recce and phone calls - about 1000 PYs. But, as you may know, no one has any granularity on the exact PY distribution yet.
I haven't seen anything close to that estimate.
 
Someone’s going to get an MMM (vice OMM, since it will likely be an HRA Cpl tasked) for doing the AER amendment.
 
Someone’s going to get an MMM (vice OMM, since it will likely be an HRA Cpl tasked) for doing the AER amendment.

Don't be absurd.

The AER data entry clerk in the Army HQ (when I was there) was a Major.

And you're assuming that the data will be properly amended and updated, with proper ministerial signature on amended MOOs. I once sat in a long, long meeting with heated arguments about transferring a unit from one formation back to another that it had been moved from a decade or more before.

Fortunately, most of the staff work could be avoided, since the original transfer was never legally completed in the first place.
 
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Don't be absurd.

The AER data entry clerk in the Army HQ (when I was there) was a Major.

And you're assuming that the data will be properly amended and updated, with proper ministerial signature on amended MOOs. I once sat in a long, long meeting with heated arguments about transferring a unit from one formation back to another that it had been moved from a decade or more before.

Fortunately, most of the staff work could be avoided, since the original transfer was never legally completed in the first place.
Well….influencer/social events planner = LCol, so I suppose a data entry clerk Major isn’t much of a shock…1644193946853.gif
 
Only a signaller would look forward to spending Friday night practicing radio procedure.
In my experience that is because we don't have working radios. When you do not regularly use the skill of course the troops will be bored refreshing a skill they don't use.
 
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In my experience that is because we don't have working radios. When you do not regularly use the skill of course the troops will be bored refreshing a skill they don't use.
It was pretty fun. We had a regular contact with a Texas Guard or AR unit. Could reach them with a 106 (guess which one) from our vehicle compound as well.

Any way, sorry for hijack about how awesome the Reserves can be.
 
It was pretty fun. We had a regular contact with a Texas Guard or AR unit. Could reach them with a 106 (guess which one) from our vehicle compound as well.

Any way, sorry for hijack about how awesome the Reserves can be.
I was actually talking with some Colombians on FM from Petawawa back in the 90s…skippity-skippity-skip-skip!
 
The thread has moved on a bit but I've been busy so I'm coming back to this.
I'll throw the challenge out to those arguing that the Divisions/Areas/Whatever in the CA are superflous. If your brigades are focused on managing the generation of combat power, and the CA is focused on corporate requirements, business planning, and force development, why would you eliminate a layer of HQ that handles the following (paraphrasing from a previous experienced poster):
Because intermediate HQ are unnecessary for the following reasons:
  • Provides proper "span of control" to the CA's numerous Regular and Reserve formations;
The span of control might be appropriate if in fact the Army had 20 brigades or even the 14 brigades it pretends to have. It doesn't. It has the people for approximately eight brigades. That could conceivably warrant two divisions if, in fact, there was a plan for the Army to operationally deploy a division and each division had a role to prepare for. The Army does not have such a plan. In fact we do have a deployable div HQ within CJOC which would fill that role but that Div HQ is not an "Army" resource. There is no plan to equip or give an operational role to an additional divisional headquarters which leaves the question solely about whether an administrative intermediate HQ is required to facilitate the "administrative span of control" of what ought to be eight brigades.

If we look at other organizations, eight brigades is not too many for one entity to control administratively. As an example, under the Brit Army 2020 Refine, 3 UK Div held five brigades; 1 UK Div held eight brigades and Force Troops held nine or ten brigades/groups. That has been changed under Future Soldier where the Army may have shortened its span of control but increased that of the brigades' to the point where some control up to 12 battalions.

The question though when dealing with an organization's span of control is whether it is best served by a flatter or taller structure. When the US Army was faced with a mandated reduction of its headquarters size in 2014, it settled on opting for a flatter structure with a median span of control of eight and found significant improvement in its effectiveness and its efficiency due in part to shorter reporting lines.
  • Provides a regional structure for Dom Ops, and speaks with the provinces;
This is easily a function that can be held by the G9 cell of a given brigade (tied into other cells). A portion of that cell can be a stay behind element if the brigade headquarters is required to deploy.
  • Manages infrastructure and interfaces with Real Property Management;
That too could be a stay behind function of a portion of the brigade's G4 cell although I personally favour that all Army infrastructure be managed a by a single cell at Army HQ because infrastructure and its associated core manning does not move when the brigade deploys. I have the same view as to current divisional training infrastructure which in my mind should all fall under CADTC.
  • Manages the Reserves and much of its administration.
The districts, areas and brigades managed adequately before there were Land Force regional areas. More importantly, management issues would be reduced if the ARes brigades were reduced in number and their current RSS brigade and unit staffs properly organized with both command, administrative and training duties.

Personally I'd like to see all brigades be a mixture of RegF and ARes personnel in varying ratios with responsibility for managing all of the brigade's administration. Personnel management ought to happen through the brigade's G1 cell. Again, there should be a G1-x stay behind cell to continue personnel management for non deployed RegF and ARes pers. Generally we never deploy a whole brigade and have a need for there to be command and control of what stays behind anyway but the system should be designed for a worst case scenario where a brigade in total goes but has to be able to deal with LOBs.
If you think this is going to be centrally managed from Ottawa, or handled by a CMBG, then I'd counter that your argument fails to consider what each echelon of command does from day-to-day.
I'd argue that what each echelon does from day-to-day is a function of an established routine of what it has been doing for the last thirty years without ever actually doing a serious review of how to improve the system. It isn't that there aren't better ideas and ways of doing things but that the military is highly resistant to change.
B. H. Liddell Hart probably said it best: “The only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind is to get an old one out.”3 Many military leaders would agree that their organizations are highly resistant to change as a result of their size, complexity, and culture. Yet despite a general awareness of this challenge, even seasoned defense leaders underestimate the degree of inertia and resistance to change within their organization. Five principles to manage change in the military
Andrew Leslie made note of that in his Report on Transformation back in 2011.

We'll probably never agree on this issue. I'm firmly of the view that the CF and the Army are bound up in a complex bureaucracy that is inherently inefficient. Most business entities who look at radical change find that flattening the organizational structure and reducing the numbers of intermediate reporting echelons increases efficiency. The divisional headquarters offers absolutely zero deployable combat capability which should make it superfluous unless it adds significant administrative efficiency. Judging by the anecdotal evidence just in this forum, it doesn't; it adds complexity and inefficiency. Do the divisions remove some of the work from the Army HQ's G Cells - probably. But, general experience in industry shows that flattening the reporting structure reduces overall workload and personnel requirements while speeding and standardizing decision making.

Can the Army headquarters absorb the divisions' administrative functions? Of course it can. The military branch staff structure provide a soup to nuts coverage of all necessary functions required. These are already broadly divided into current operations (in the Army's case - force generation) and future planning (in the Army's case - force structure, doctrine etc).

So what's missing - back to Liddell Hart - the will to change or even contemplate it. IMHO headquarters structures are to the Canadian Army today what the horse was in the 1930s.

🍻
 
The Militia districts and areas were not adequate C2 structures. Because what they commanded was and continues to be inadequate. There are not 51 infantry battalions in the Army Reserve. Nor are there 17 artillery regiments, nor 10 engineer regiments nor... well, you get my point. C2 rationalization has to begin at the lowest levels to permit C2 rationalization at the higher levels.

So, for example, 32 CBG: Convert to a single battalion (perhaps two, I haven't looked at detailed numbers recently). With a recce platoon for the black hats, and mortars to perpetuate 7 Toronto RCA etc etc ... and a single LCol to report to higher (or two, if there are trained numbers to make two battalions).

The current sprawling C2 of the Army Reserve, where trained platoons minus that perpetuate units with tenuous histories filled more with self declared glory than fact insist that "We must have a LCol in command to talk to the mayor" is its fundamental problem. Cull the LCols and above (and a good chunk of the CWOs as well) and suddenly the model is sustainable, supportable, and you can rid the system of many of the intermediate C2 levels.
 
Too many of those emotionally invested in the Army Reserves would likely rather die on the hill than see ‘units’ lowered to Maj or even Capt command level. FJAG’s point of the institution being incapable of contemplating change will likely be something discussed in 40-50 years time…
 
So the reserve pay system of half days and full days means that 1 full weekend (48 hours, let’s be reasonable and say 16 working hours) costs the same as 4 3 hour long half days right ? So we’re actually getting more training time at similar costs, obviously there’s some feeding issues and mileage that come into play but still, it’s much more effective use of time.

I have been with units that tried every possible permutation and combination of parading schedules.

We always went back to one weekend a month and four weeknights, mainly to make sure that all types of soldier could make it in at least a couple of times per month.

Most people's work, school, and social/family lives were disrupted to unacceptable levels if we ran two weekends per month. And we had to have meetings during the week anyways to keep Bde HQ satisfied (Class B turns into pumpkins on weekends) anyways as all the usual admin, that can't be done during range exercises or section attacks 80kms away from the armoury, had to be pushed along. This led to senior leader burnout.

If every militia soldier was an 18 year old college student being trained by full timers it would work fine, maybe ;)
 
The Militia districts and areas were not adequate C2 structures. Because what they commanded was and continues to be inadequate. There are not 51 infantry battalions in the Army Reserve. Nor are there 17 artillery regiments, nor 10 engineer regiments nor... well, you get my point. C2 rationalization has to begin at the lowest levels to permit C2 rationalization at the higher levels.

So, for example, 32 CBG: Convert to a single battalion (perhaps two, I haven't looked at detailed numbers recently). With a recce platoon for the black hats, and mortars to perpetuate 7 Toronto RCA etc etc ... and a single LCol to report to higher (or two, if there are trained numbers to make two battalions).

The current sprawling C2 of the Army Reserve, where trained platoons minus that perpetuate units with tenuous histories filled more with self declared glory than fact insist that "We must have a LCol in command to talk to the mayor" is its fundamental problem. Cull the LCols and above (and a good chunk of the CWOs as well) and suddenly the model is sustainable, supportable, and you can rid the system of many of the intermediate C2 levels.
When I said they were adequate at the time I meant that they were adequate to do the little that they were required to do with the limited resources that they and their subordinate units had.

The system then and the system now, regardless of the terminology is, a travesty and a waste of valuable human capital. When I looked at this a few years ago using highly questionable numbers, 32 CBG was said to have 2,000 people. I had no data on how many were pre DP1 in training nor did I have data on how many were NES. Frankly the fact that we can't run off a current and accurate strength report on these statistics is damning in itself.

When I started the game of resource reallocation to structure I reached the conclusion that taking the recent historical numbers of the ARes and the HSvcs and MP reserves should allow you to generate two 5,000 man manoeuvre brigades plus one combat support and two combat service support brigades of 3,000 people each. That cuts the number of ResF units from roughly 135 to roughly 43 of which only 15 are armour or infantry.

That said, to properly train and sustain those five brigades as "adequately" capable would require a complete restructure of the ResF C2 and Trg system by making much of it (at even the company level and above) RegF. In addition it would require RegF augmentation during the intense summer training period. One can't have ones cake and eat it too. We have the ability to and should train reservists to RegF DP1 standards (the RegF may need to see if their current standards are themselves sustainable).

On the other hand, I think its extremely difficult to give even a ResF company commander both the necessary training and experience needed for the job on Class A time unless we become considerably less risk averse then we currently are. My guess is we won't change (and probably shouldn't lower our standards) which means there will have to be RegF company and above commanders for ResF units. Similarly the strength of our NCO corps comes from its experience. That also makes it virtually impossible to generate effective RSMs and CSMs within the Class A system.

I do believe a proper hybrid system can be formed which ensures that ResF personnel are well led and trained and RegF personnel can have a proper career experience notwithstanding that they are part of a ResF unit.

For me the problem is that the CF does not think in terms of maximizing defence outputs for the relatively large inputs being put into DND these days. A properly structured ResF would increase mobilizable outputs at a significantly lower annual cost. We are not properly calculating the opportunity costs of a properly organized, trained and equipped ResF. As an example converting an Active Army Brigade Combat Team to an ARNG one provides a systemwide US$2.1 to 2.2 billion annual operating cost saving depending on the type of BCT.

We need to be very careful in defining what forces we absolutely need to have full-time and which can safely be relegated to a properly trained and equipped part-time force.

🍻
 
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