Iran Seizes Three British Vessels, 8 Crewmen

[Jarnhamar]

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Puh-lease. They were on a training mission. They had no intention of going into Iranian waters. It was an accident. They weren't going to invade Iran, they weren't going to attack a port or a ship, they were training Iraqi police to IMPROVE stability in the region.
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Iran is a country that has no respect for international laws except when they can use it for their own personal gain (like this incident) and it is truly pathetic that anyone would defend these slimeballs.
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Iran stepped out of line, and for that they should be punished. Besides, every time we buy a barrel of oil from the Iranians, it goes to fund their research for nuclear weapons, advanced missiles, or something of the like.

Guys lay off. Military brat is obviously an expert on not only the British navy BUT the country of Iran as well. (and all the ARABS in Iran, as devilguy pointed out..)
This is yet another case of someone comming here who is right and 90% of the members of the board are wrong.


This is what is commonly refered to as the BAR EFFECT.
A young man   (recruit/message board guest) walks into the bar (message forum). Feeling like he needs to impress the fellows gathered around he starts talking pretty loud trying to get attention. Sometimes he knows what hes talking about, other times he's talking out of his ass. When the regular patrons look over, laugh and ignore him (because they've seen it a BILLION times) the new guy gets insulted, pissed, and begins to talk EVEN louder.  
What happens when the new guy's ego can't take it and he resorts to picking a fight with someone in the bar? Everyone kicks him out because their there to relax.

Relax and quit looking for a fight. Your going to end up getting pissed to the point where you break the rules, flip out and you get kicked out. It's happened a billion times. Your a civilian (albeit trying to joint he army) on a military website. Your not going to impress anyone by being a tough guy.

 

[devil39]

devil39, I never advocated bombing every Arab in Iran. I advocated punishing the Iranian regime for stepping out of line. Wether you think they stepped out of line or not, that is really up to you. But I admire the Iranian people, I think they are brave for wanting reform, for wanting to distance themselves from a theocratic regime but they can't do it alone. They need help from outsiders(British, American, etc.) to help them topple their government.

Military Brat,

You continue to show your ignorance, and I do not mean this as an insult.   Merely as a comment on your lack of knowledge of the topic at hand.  

You advocated bombing Iran.  

Now you claim you "never advocated bombing every Arab in Iran" (my bold and italics).   Do you know why I used bold and italic?

Iranians are not Arabs.   Iranians are Persians and Azeri in the majority (51% and 24%).   Only 3% Arab.

 

[SFontaine]

I'm of the opinion that the Marines made an honest mistake, as they have said already.. On CNN I saw pictures of the river and it's pretty damn hard to tell borders.

The border is right up the center of the river and it's caused a great deal of debate between Iran and Iraq pre-War. Easy to make a mistake. Personally I think the Iranians are being overzealous here. The Marines apologized and should now be let go. Simple as that. Iran is just playing the big tough guy here.

 

[NavyGrunt]

hanks for the pic there bro. We've been over what you said and I think thats the general consensus on this board. What happened after the mistake- "The arrest" is the issue.

 

[SFontaine]

hanks for the pic there bro. We've been over what you said and I think thats the general consensus on this board. What happened after the mistake- "The arrest" is the issue.

I skimmed a little

Well like I said the arrest is just those gus tryin to be high and mighty. Not a lot of chances for those guys to be on top of something.

 

[Pieman]

The border is right up the center of the river and it's caused a great deal of debate between Iran and Iraq pre-War. Easy to make a mistake

Just how wide is that river? The Iranians report that they caught the boats in their water 1km in their territory. Just not saying it is true, not saying it is a lie either. You have to take these reports with a grain of salt on both sides.

Either way, all these crewmen are going to be released:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/06/23/world/newiran_brit040623

I don't think there is too much to be read into this situation. The Brits could have made a mistake, or more likely, they were conducting patrols a little bit inside Iran to make sure operatives were not trying to stage an attack from just inside the Iran boarder. Iran noticed this and after a while decided to intercept to make sure it was understood they did not want that happening. They never would have imprisoned the troops as they already got their point across. Just my theory on the topic.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Pieman I agree with most with what you are saying except "they were conducting patrols a little bit inside Iran to make sure operatives were not trying to stage an attack from just inside the Iran border" you do not conduct patrols inside another's territory without prior approval. Thats a big diplomatic and military no-no. The end result of stuff like that is what you see here. Either way I am glad the RN personnel are going to be released like I mentioned earlier.

 

[Pieman]

you do not conduct patrols inside another's territory without prior approval. Thats a big diplomatic and military no-no.

Yes, you are right. The only reason I stated that though was because my feeling is that Iran would not repond by arresting them unless it was happening on a frequent basis. But there is not much point to speculation, so I won't bother

 

[bossi]

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight ... it appears a diplomatic solution won out after all.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the analogous precedent whereby a certain country claimed sovereignty over ocean waters well beyond the normal, internationally recognised 12 mile limit
(and so, the U.S. and other world powers would routinely send warships into the disputed zone just to "prove" their point that the 12 mile limit was the only one they'd recognise).
In this case, it's not surprising the boundary is disputed - "common sense" might suggest the boundary simply be equidistant from each shore, however ... (take a look at the border line drawn through the Great Lakes, for example, or in and around Sweden, Denmark, etc. ... "as clear as mud" ...).

Not much else left to be said, after this:

Iran frees 8 British sailors detained for illegally entering its waters

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Iran's Foreign Ministry said Iran had released eight British sailors detained for illegally entering Iranian waters.

"The eight British sailors, including six soldiers and two ranking military officials, have been released," a Foreign Ministry spokeswoman told The Associated Press Wednesday.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Thankfully things were settled peacefully and diplomatically.

 

[clasper]

Although I was amused to notice that Iran is keeping the boats and equipment.  Perhaps a bit of shiny kit syndrome?

 

[ags281]

Although I was amused to notice that Iran is keeping the boats and equipment.   Perhaps a bit of shiny kit syndrome?

More likely them just trying to get every little ounce of victory out of this that they can. Not very often that they get to "win" a few points in one of these political contests.

 

[Military Brat]

LONDON, England (AP) -- Eight British servicemen seized by Iranian troops last week on the Iran-Iraq border say they were "forcibly escorted into Iranian territorial waters" before they were detained, Britain's Defense Ministry says.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/01/iran.uk.ap/index.html

So, I was right in the end. Iran had absolutely no reason to detain these 8 men. Unfortunately most people on this board were too easily manipulated by the Iranian state-run television. The British sailors and marines didn't stray into Iranian waters, they were "forcibly escorted", in essence kidnapped by the Iranians.

Anyone out there still willing to defend the Iranians?

 

[winchable]

Given the information these "other members of the board" had, they took a stance and defended what might not have seemed sensible to you, however they were being pragmatic given international law concerning boundaries in water.

No one had anyway of knowing they Sailors were forced into Iranian waters, not even yourself.
Now it appears that this is so, that is no reason to jump on your high horse and go "NYANYANYANYAAANYAAA"

The for, or against attitude you've taken in regards to people who do not agree with you, is a dangerous line of argument that is used by the very same tyrannical regime that is in question.

You'll find getting your opinions across to be much smoother, if you present them without resorting to the playground tactic of gloating over your opponent.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

:'(
Here is a tissue Military Brat....when you sail in those waters and see the terrain maybe then you will have a valid opinion. If the Brits actually believed the Iranians were lying do you actually think they will be still talking to them? Hello!!! :

Until one side is proven 100% in the right then my opinion still stands based on the information that was available at the time.

Oh don't get cocky....you might find people less likely to help you out on these boards and outright dismiss your views and opinions as shyte.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I already dismiss him outright.  oh by the way Iranian State News is on my FAV list on my remote.

 

[Infanteer]

So what, how does this support your idea that we should have bombed Iran?   You're making  an ass of yourself.

 

[Kirkhill]

Did anybody else see comments to the effect that the disputed Boundar referred to by SFontaine is actually the issue.  Iraq, since the days of the British Mesopotamian Mandate of the 1920s has claimed the deepwater middle of the channel as the international boundary.  The Iranians have always claimed ALL the water as theirs.  They feel that the end of dry land on the Iraqi side is the end of Iraq.  Therefore anybody on that water other than Iranians are intruding into Iran and are there illegally as far as they are concerned.

That doesn't make there position right or wrong, but it does explain their position, a position that is likely to be very popular among their Republican elements.

We actually have a similar situation in the Dixon Channel between BC and Alaska.  It isn't unknown for Canadian authorities to confront and arrest US boats fishing in waters that the US considers legally theirs.  Not yet ready to nuke the Yanks.  Hope they aren't quite ready to nuke us.

What is wrong, as everybody on this board, most people at large and the moderate Iraqis that released the swabbies and squaddies and are soon to release their kit, realize is the way that the Republican elements treated the Brits.

 

[Military Brat]

How about we just let terrorist nations do as they wish, go into whichever waters they want, and break whichever laws they want with no retribution.  :

How do you suggest they be punished for what they did? After all, if the Americans or Brits seized Iranian patrol boats and paraded Iranian captives on TV, there would be world outcry about international laws being broken.

But of course we live in a 2 tier world, where scolding our allies is fine but scolding any of our enemies is a taboo subject.

 

[SFontaine]

I think it's the way that you scolded our enemies that people have the issue with. From what I read you essentially said bomb em all and no regrets (In reponse to the initial taking). That's what people initially had the problem with. And now people are pissed cause you're acting like you knew this all along and that's why you said it.. If you had just said "Heh typical Iranian jackasses" I doubt anyone would have said anything but you had to go "NYA NYA NYA LOOK I TOLD YOU SO" and   I think that's what people have the issue with.