Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[lenaitch]

I'm not interested in historical discussion about who did what. It provides zero solutions for what is happening today. It simply circles back to the philosophy of 'I'm not responsible for something that happened 100, 2, 3, or 400 years ago.' It will have no bearing on today's solutions and only serves to muddy the waters on how to move forward to protect our current way of life. Let's stick to the here and now.

Sure, but understanding the past - ours and others - helps to inform the present.

Some thing about 'those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it' and Einstein's definition of insanity.

Let's make brand new mistakes rather than repeating old ones.

In any business transformation project there is a tipping point after which you can no longer put the genie back in the bottle. For better or for worse, immigration is a business transformation project. Think back to the turn of the 19th to 20th century. I expect that the then primary white cultures, English Scots and French were not pleased with the masses of Germans, Ukrainians, Italians, Poles and Russians entering by the boatload. Hell, in the 1960s we were still making disparaging jokes about Italians and Poles in Toronto.

As Europe's economies got better, less and less of the "masses" from there decreased, Canada had to look to other parts of the world. Ignoring the altruistic desires by some political parties for a multicultural society, it was the need to grow the population and the readily available desirable classes of immigrants from the third world that fulfilled that need.

The big difference that came with that is that while most of the European immigrants, like me, that arrived mostly wanted to integrate fully into the existing Canadian society. Being European made that easier (but not entirely easy - see Poles and Italians above). The newer crop that has come in over the last half century or so are more inclined to keep their cultural distinctions alive. The reasons for that are varied but religion, visible distinctions and deeply engrained cultural backgrounds have a lot to do with that.

Canada and America have always had to deal with not being a homogenous society and have had to deal with some radical elements within the immigrant group - think of support for the IRA; or communists fighting in Spain; or the FLQ; even the American revolution and Civil war have a cultural aspect to them.

I certainly have no answer as to how to stop violence as I think there will always be components of a "free and democratic society" who will turn to violence when their particular message is not accepted by the general public. One can absorb those acts and deal with them within the existing policing system. I'm actually more worried about how easy it is to manipulate the social media to influence large masses of all stripes into accepting false narratives. Once the masses are won over, critical analysis of the second and third order effects of a course of action is drowned out. While many focus on immigrants as a problem, the problem goes well beyond that into differences as to how the political structure of a country should work in order to benefit a given faction. This Transends mere cultural backgrounds. Currently, the flames of those differences are being fanned from inside and outside the country and will lead to more explosive violent acts then issues relating to some distant land.

A couple of other differences between then and now is there were few social supports, for anyone, and we didn't have a social mindset, supported by governments, that immigrants' pasts and differences should be celebrated and perpetuated.

 

[Remius]

Sure, but understanding the past - ours and others - helps to inform the present.

Some thing about 'those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it' and Einstein's definition of insanity.

Let's make brand new mistakes rather than repeating old ones.


A couple of other differences between then and now is there were few social supports, for anyone, and we didn't have a social mindset, supported by governments, that immigrants' pasts and differences should be celebrated and perpetuated.

People don’t want to look at the past because they can’t accept what they see and prefer the fairytales they were told.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Sure, but understanding the past - ours and others - helps to inform the present.

Some thing about 'those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it' and Einstein's definition of insanity.

Let's make brand new mistakes rather than repeating old ones.

There's learning from the past and then there is what we are doing. A powerful segment of our population is self loathing and destructing.

 

[Halifax Tar]

People don’t want to look at the past because they can’t accept what they see and prefer the fairytales they were told.

People are looking at the past, what we are experiencing is different reactions to it.

Some people don't believe they should pay for the sins of others. Some are self loathing and destructive.

 

[Brad Sallows]

People don’t want to look at the past because they can’t accept what they see and prefer the fairytales they were told.

Other people look at the past and can see nothing but the outrages.

 

[Remius]

Other people look at the past and can see nothing but the outrages.

No disagreement.

 

[FJAG]

The difference is the Poles and Italians and Irish didn't have an intention to destroy the country they were coming to.

You can't conflate the waves of immigration. We're witnessing a quiet invasion meant to reshape the west politically and culturally.

The difference that you perceive is illusional. The immigrants coming to this country do so because they perceive a better life for them and their families here. (Why else would someone leave a nice warm climate to come to a country of six months of winter and six months of poor sledding?)

Are there some people in the group who hold extremist views not uncovered by the Canadian staff who vet them for immigration? Possibly. Are we now going to repatriate anyone of Russian heritage as a risk of being fifth columnist sleeper agents sent here by the Soviet collective in 1918? (Incidentally if you believe in this concept, I recommend John Sandford's novel "Hidden Prey." Sandford's Davenport "Prey" series are always a good read. This one had a great plot.). Or then there are the tens of thousands of Germans who came after both WW1 and WW2. Are they, like my father who did fight as a paratrooper for Germany, all sleeping Nazi agents intent on resurrecting the Third Reich?

Will Canada's culture change as a result of these recent waves of immigrants? Undoubtedly. It changed dramatically after the massive immigration waves of the original white colonists in the 16-1700s and again around 1900 which augmented/supplanted the existing French, English, Scottish by several European nationalities.

It's all too easy to ascribe malevolent intentions on a class of people amongst whom some bad actors exist. Especially if their skin colour doesn't match the preferred colour spectrum. Does Islam preach its superiority as a religion and the need to bring enlightenment to the masses? Sure. So does Judaism and Christianity. And despite protestations to the contrary, that movement has not burned out. And here I'll let the mic drop on the American state and federal governments who gleefully fund and do not supervise tens of thousands of Christian schools under various voucher programs).

I'll reaffirm my belief here: Deal with or punish the bad actors but do not ascribe their malevolence to the general class of people that they come from. If you are truly concerned about a particular group becoming dominant in society to the point that they want to make laws that directly or indirectly foists their religious beliefs on the country as a whole (and I for one am concerned but not just about the one denomination being singled out here and I'll spare you quoting Marx here) then make bullet proof laws that entrench secularism in government from top to bottom (including and especially the education system). Let's allow an individual religious freedom but at the same time stop kowtowing to and accepting religious or cultural practices by which someone can demean or treat as a second class human another individual.

 

[FJAG]

Incidentally - not exactly on point but related - Jordan Peterson has dropped another lengthy article in the National Post on the state of his current situation.

 

[QV]

I think one of the West's vulnerabilities is the huge influx of migrants from countries and regions that are not close allied nations. Should we get to a point where WWIII is on (Axis powers being Russia, China, Iran, NK, and their proxies), there is a high likelihood the western powers will be dealing with insurgent activity within their own borders causing havoc. Imagine the resources that would be needed to deal with thousands, even tens of thousands, of Axis power operatives stirring up trouble inside the borders of allied nations. For countries like Canada, this would be devastating... the US, with a rifle behind every blade of grass, not as damaging but a major issue nonetheless.

Is that too tinfoil?

 

[Halifax Tar]

The difference that you perceive is illusional. The immigrants coming to this country do so because they perceive a better life for them and their families here. (Why else would someone leave a nice warm climate to come to a country of six months of winter and six months of poor sledding?)

Are there some people in the group who hold extremist views not uncovered by the Canadian staff who vet them for immigration? Possibly. Are we now going to repatriate anyone of Russian heritage as a risk of being fifth columnist sleeper agents sent here by the Soviet collective in 1918? (Incidentally if you believe in this concept, I recommend John Sandford's novel "Hidden Prey." Sandford's Davenport "Prey" series are always a good read. This one had a great plot.). Or then there are the tens of thousands of Germans who came after both WW1 and WW2. Are they, like my father who did fight as a paratrooper for Germany, all sleeping Nazi agents intent on resurrecting the Third Reich?

Will Canada's culture change as a result of these recent waves of immigrants? Undoubtedly. It changed dramatically after the massive immigration waves of the original white colonists in the 16-1700s and again around 1900 which augmented/supplanted the existing French, English, Scottish by several European nationalities.

It's all too easy to ascribe malevolent intentions on a class of people amongst whom some bad actors exist. Especially if their skin colour doesn't match the preferred colour spectrum. Does Islam preach its superiority as a religion and the need to bring enlightenment to the masses? Sure. So does Judaism and Christianity. And despite protestations to the contrary, that movement has not burned out. And here I'll let the mic drop on the American state and federal governments who gleefully fund and do not supervise tens of thousands of Christian schools under various voucher programs).

I'll reaffirm my belief here: Deal with or punish the bad actors but do not ascribe their malevolence to the general class of people that they come from. If you are truly concerned about a particular group becoming dominant in society to the point that they want to make laws that directly or indirectly foists their religious beliefs on the country as a whole (and I for one am concerned but not just about the one denomination being singled out here and I'll spare you quoting Marx here) then make bullet proof laws that entrench secularism in government from top to bottom (including and especially the education system). Let's allow an individual religious freedom but at the same time stop kowtowing to and accepting religious or cultural practices by which someone can demean or treat as a second class human another individual.

I don't blame people for leaving shitholes, the places you only mentioned as having nice weather, to come here. We have/had a great thing going.

But you only have to look at the link @Jarnhamar posted to see what happens when critical mass of culture and politics swings.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sure, but understanding the past - ours and others - helps to inform the present.

Some thing about 'those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it' and Einstein's definition of insanity.

Let's make brand new mistakes rather than repeating old ones.


A couple of other differences between then and now is there were few social supports, for anyone, and we didn't have a social mindset, supported by governments, that immigrants' pasts and differences should be celebrated and perpetuated.

Nobody is saying that. What I was implying was to stop the back and forth about the past. We know what that is, we know how it was previously dealt with. However, the past is the past. It can't be changed. What we need to do is come up with ways to mitigate the current threat. That may take some out of the box thinking.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Incidentally - not exactly on point but related - Jordan Peterson has dropped another lengthy article in the National Post on the state of his current situation.

Amusing as that is, I fear he may goad "them" into accepting the challenge of creating an accredited profession of social media experts, mostly to be populated by misfits with low academic potential who have been educated in "grievance studies".

 

[Remius]

I think one of the West's vulnerabilities is the huge influx of migrants from countries and regions that are not close allied nations. Should we get to a point where WWIII is on (Axis powers being Russia, China, Iran, NK, and their proxies), there is a high likelihood the western powers will be dealing with insurgent activity within their own borders causing havoc. Imagine the resources that would be needed to deal with thousands, even tens of thousands, of Axis power operatives stirring up trouble inside the borders of allied nations. For countries like Canada, this would be devastating... the US, with a rifle behind every blade of grass, not as damaging but a major issue nonetheless.

Is that too tinfoil?

People thought that when it came to Germans, Japanese and Italians. A lot of ressources were in fact put in place for internment camps.

On another note:

Top 10 Source Countries Of New Permanent Residents Of Canada In 2024 | Canada Immigration and Visa Information

View the top 10 citizenships of new permanent residents of Canada in 2024.

immigration.ca

 

[Kirkhill]

Some place between here and there is an answer, satisfactory or not.

The facts remain that we were at war with Germany, Italy and Japan. And for that matter we were at war with Communists from Russia, China and elsewhere in the McCarthy era.

Leaving the door open is an unsatisfactory answer as well.

 

[lenaitch]

Nobody is saying that. What I was implying was to stop the back and forth about the past. We know what that is, we know how it was previously dealt with. However, the past is the past. It can't be changed. What we need to do is come up with ways to mitigate the current threat. That may take some out of the box thinking.

Fair enough, but our knowledge of the past, and how we interpret that information, is always evolving and being refined.

 

[OldSolduer]

It makes me laugh that leftish folks could not see this a valid COA.

Useful fools and IF we let this sort of shenanigans continue we may have a problem on our hands - not a CAF or GOC problem - everyone's problem. Those that support radical Islam also support the beheading of LGBTQ people....right?
Useful fools.

 

[FJAG]

I don't blame people for leaving shitholes, the places you only mentioned as having nice weather, to come here. We have/had a great thing going.

But you only have to look at the link @Jarnhamar posted to see what happens when critical mass of culture and politics swings.

I certainly appreciate the issue. It's a two part problem for Canada. Part 1 is that Canada needs immigrants to continue to maintain its population and grow its economy and Part 2 is that the mass of immigrants to the country come from "non traditional" immigrant sources and who are bringing a diversity of culture to the country. IMHO, the primary way to prevent the type of situation that @Jarnhamar puts forward (and it concerns me too) is primarily through a strong constitutional mandate of secularism and prohibition against religious-based legislation/regulation. Secondly, there needs to be a better control on balancing the influx of immigrants so that not too large a group of one religious or cultural group becomes dominant.

I think we already have a wide swing in politics when you see some of the LPC policies many of which go too far but in their minds do not go far enough yet.

Amusing as that is, I fear he may goad "them" into accepting the challenge of creating an accredited profession of social media experts, mostly to be populated by misfits with low academic potential who have been educated in "grievance studies".

I spent eight years as an active bencher for the Law Society of Manitoba and think that I have a pretty good handle on how professional discipline works. IMHO, his governing body is nuts. I like Peterson. He's definitely a burr under the skin of many folks, but he asks the right questions. I disagree with some things he puts forward but find myself agreeing with many others. What's going on, IMHO, seems to be a witch hunt being driven by some very thin skinned folks. I'm not surprised the courts didn't intervene. The law is very strongly written giving administrative bodies wide discretion in how they handle their business.

OTOH, I've been following some of the changes in the various provinces human rights legislation as well as the professional codes for Manitoba and Ontario and am somewhat concerned that they too are tightening up things which IMHO are becoming prohibitive of folks who take unpopular positions. The problem with all of these things is that like any group, these professions consist of two groups of people. The first group is the mass of them - the average Joe's who just want to get on with their jobs and generally do not involve themselves in governance. The second group is the dangerous one. That's that small group of radicals that wants to change the world (in one direction or the other) and are more than happy to get involved and vocally stand for election for positions on these governing bodies. From time to time there are enough of them to cause radical change. It's been that way for a long time and most of the changes of the past have been acceptable but we've entered an age where the boundaries are being pushed more and more to favour certain niche special interest groups.

Here's the answer. Get involved at governance at all levels and take control. And, I say again, strong constitutional safeguards for secularism now.

 

[CBH99]

99% is a hell of a confidence interval. Do you have something to base this on other than a hunch?

My hunch is based on the last 4 years of having essentially a non-existent southern border, with thousands of illegal migrants crossing that border every single day...

The CBP One app, which allows illegal migrants to check in with Customs & Border Patrol before they even arrive, to help get themselves processed faster once they show up.

Currently almost all migrants showing up at the southern border are released into the country pending their court date, and the current wait time until that court date rolls around is approximately 5 years down the road. (5 freaking years!)

A vast majority of them come in with no ID. A vast majority of them coming in are fighting aged males.

But we are also seeing quite a few people from Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, and Sudan coming up through the Darian Gap route also - all facilitated by United Nations camps along the way.

Who is paying their way? Air travel isn't cheap these days, especially when flying across the globe. How are these people flying to Panama, Ecuador, and Venezuela?

The cost of the air travel alone for a distance that far would allow those people to buy a pretty goos life for themselves much closer to home, yet when they arrive in the US they barely have a few bucks in their pocket...


...


We also see a high volume & steady flow of young fighting age Chinese males coming up. They seem to have their own route thats distinctly different than the route being taken by everybody else, but seem to end up at the same camps along the way.

At least some must be PLA and MSS. China would be foolish NOT to take advantage of the situation...

...

And so far, roughly a dozen or so people on the terrorism watchlist have been apprehended coming across the border. But how many have made it across that didn't get caught??

Given the source countries of where these people are coming from, I'm guessing there's been at least a few...


For example, the Taliban are now once again the legitimate government of Afghanistan and are responsible for issuing Afghan passports. Yet every Thursday their passport office is closed because it is 'Holy Warrior Day' where only those who wish to fight the West are permitted in to get their passports issued - I shit you not.

The US also sends the Taliban anywhere from $40M to $87M per week...

Nope, I'm not making that up. The money is flown to Afghanistan in cash each week where it goes through a pretty primitive process and eventually ends up in Afghan currency.

I'm also not making up the fact that one of the key players in this was/is a key member of the Haqqani network, and currently has a $10M bounty on his head from the US State Dept...


The southern border has seen a steady flow of Afghan males entering the country for quite some time now, and it begs the question...who is funding all these young Afghan males to fly across the globe? Who is funding all these folks from around Africa to fly all the way over?

And why would they foot the bill for all that air travel? (Maybe I'm being cynical, but I don't think it's out of the goodness of their hearts...)

...


The US is also, by and large, an easy country for one to source a few firearms. Depending on what state one finds themselves in, there might not be a whole lot of background checks or other gatekeeping entities to ensure the wrong people don't get guns.

And if a certain group is smart, they'll be sourcing their firearms via proxys & middlemen to keep their activities under the radar. Not only does that allow them to arm in relative secrecy, but if suspicion is around it'll be the middle men who get scooped up.

If Venezuelan street gangs & local affiliates of cartels can source guns, these guys will also be able to source guns.


...


I also base my hunch on what's already started to happen.

Venezuelan street gangs going door to door in an apartment complex in Aurora, Colorado as they took over the complex - demanding tenants start paying their rent to them.

Another affiliate of that same street gang violently robbing a jewelry store (can't remember what city that was in tho)

(Or for an example closer to home, the pro Hamas gathering in Vancouver to mark the anniversary of the Oct 7 slaughter in Israel - openly calling for death to Canada, the US, and Israel - while lighting flags on fire, tearing them apart, and stomping on them - and the crowd erupting in applause, and repeating the chants of the narrator...)


...


Now imagine those weren't Venezuelan gang members going door to door to extort rent from the tenants, or to violently rob the store of its cash and valuables.

Instead imagine those were terrorists from Afghanistan going door to door to kill the occupants, or simply entered the store to gun down whoever was in there - who's motive is simply 'Death to America' - who start their operation knowing full well they will die, and embrace it...

Imagine busy shopping malls, professional sports games, hospitals, police stations, schools of all levels, residential neighborhoods, business parks, and critical infrastructure - all being targeted around the same time

And imagine this happening in 5 or 6 locations in a city simultaneously. Across 5 or 6 cities simultaneously, or more...

And who's to say the above scenario takes place in just one day? Maybe the exact same scenario plays out again, a few days later when everybody thinks it's over? Or a few weeks? Maybe a few months, when people start to let their guard down?


...


Like I said, I'm not trying to fear monger.

Maybe nothing happens, and I am 100% wrong (I hope I'm wrong, like I seriously hope I'm super duper wrong)

But when we see Venezuelan gangs starting to openly move into the same territory claimed by Chicago's street gangs, take over entire apartment blocks in Colorado by going door to door with guns, and violently robbing stores in broad daylight (and very little being done about it from local law enforcement) I just have a feeling this is the very early stages of it...

 

[RangerRay]

Eh, not quite…

Examining ‘grossly exaggerated’ claims about Venezuelan gang activity in a Colorado city

Authorities reject claims city has been ‘taken over’ by an international gang but police say gang is active in area

www.theglobeandmail.com

The initial source of claims that Tren de Aragua had taken over an Aurora apartment complex appears to be the complex’s owner, CBZ Management. Local media has reported on long-standing building code violations and attempts by the city to hold the management company responsible for years of neglect.


Aurora police have said CBZ Management was attempting to “fabricate alternative narratives” about gangs at their property. But police have also acknowledged that “components” of the gang “are operating in Aurora.”

Mayor, Council Member Address Gang Concerns

Mayor Mike Coffman and Council Member Danielle Jurinsky provide a statement about the widely reported presence of Tren de Aragua in the region

www.auroragov.org

 

[Cloud Cover]

Really long report and analysis. Basically it’s this:

Marching Toward Violence: The Domestic Anti-Israeli Protest Movement

Over 150 groups involved in the disruptive anti-Israel protests on college campuses and elsewhere in the United States are “pro-terrorism.” The vast majority support Hamas and/or the October 7 terrorist attacks. The movement contains militant elements pushing it toward a wider, more severe...

capitalresearch.org

“Over 150 groups involved in the disruptive anti-Israel protests on college campuses and elsewhere in the United States are “pro-terrorism.” The vast majority support Hamas and/or the October 7 terrorist attacks. The movement contains militant elements pushing it toward a wider, more severe campaign focused on property destruction and violence properly described as domestic terrorism.

…

Its long-term goals are revolutionary. It demands the “dismantlement” of America’s “colonialist,” “imperialist,” or “capitalist” system, often calling for the U.S. to be abolished as a country.

These revolutionary goals are held by the two different factions of anti-Israel extremist groups. The first faction combines Islamists, communists/Marxists, and anarchists. The second faction consists of groups with white supremacist/nationalist ideologies. They share Jew-hatred, anti-Americanism, and the goal of sparking a revolutionary uprising.

This study analyzes the movement and its over 150 pro-terrorist groups and draws 12 conclusions about its supporters, means, and objectives and identifies least 10 options for legislators, law enforcement, and concerned citizens to take action against the movement.”

Link to full report: https://capitalresearch.org/app/uploads/Marching-Toward-Violence.pdf